next step on improving?

Ok, got better-two handed I can keep 9 out of ten in the black at 20 yd, the max distance I have at the 
indoor range. One handed, much worse.
My plan is to keep up the exercise routine, which has helped the wobbles a fair amount, and concentrate
on getting the one handed in the black and then tighten up from there.  I do a lot of dry firing considering
my age and infirmity.  So the question:  shorten the range, shoot 22 only, keep shooting two handed (not
my preference), or quit shooting until the wiggles go away, doing DF only?
If I had access to the guys on this site when I was in my 50's I would be pretty high up-it is a wonder.

At this point, I’d shoot on a full B8 target one handed, with a dot.  Shoot on the target reversed until you can shoot 10 shots consecutively in the 8 ring.  Then turn the target around and continue until you get 10 shots consecutively in the black.

At 86 you are doing pretty good, keep shooting 2 handed you need to learn the trigger. I help some older gents at our range, they all shoot 2 handed but their stance is Isosceles. That stance is geared towards self defense and action pistol shooting and personally it tends to string shots vertically. 
 A better stance would be a modified Weaver stance or Chapman stance. https://www.pewpewtactical.com/shooting-stance-grip/ is closer to shooting 1 handed, the feet positions are different, but the shooting arm is extended and straight and you can develop your grip, trigger, and aiming. It also allows you to put your chin on your shooting arm and will help "weld" together a steady hold, even the grip and trigger pull feels better. 
 What's nice about this system of training is that it allows you to develop your basic fundamentals. You can do holding exercises on separate days to increase your shoulder strength, which will decrease your wobble. Just start slow and work up to more time after a week or two, you don't want to strain your muscles.
 Have fun and keep training at home, go to the range and fire a few targets and see how you feel with your skills then when you see the wobbles subside and you're grouping some decent targets try 1 handed shooting. Don't get discouraged with scores it's the grouping you're after and a shot process you'll need to write down and follow to help you improve more. Even if you never shoot 1-handed I think this is a better way to shoot precision.
 Get comfortable and be proud that you can improve and develop into what you want.
 This is my 2 cents worth.
Stan

many thanks to both of you.  I am in decent shape, and can see where the wobbles are a lot smaller since I got serious with the hold exercises and weights, and for some reason, I get a better point of aim at the range than I do at home dry firing-it seems automatic at the range, and I have to keep messing with the back foot to even get the dot to show up at home-work in progress.

L. that could be a gripping issue. When I get to the bench I like to get a position to my target. I raise my shooting hand and point my hand at my bull and use my thumb and as a sight and adjust with my rear foot until aligned. Then try grabbing the pistols barrel with your off hand and placing the pistol into the V shaped area between thumb and index finger then wrap the fingers around the front strap of the gun. Do this on the bench, sometimes you might have to wrap your fingers around more or maybe less. Then assume your stance, close your eyes and raise the pistol at the target, open your eyes and see where your dot ends up. You might have to repeat this a couple of times to get it perfected.
 By the way Bruce Martindale has an excellent e-book that's on this webpage. He describes a couple of ways to grip the pistol that you might like. It's a personal preference, because every shooter's hand and fingers could be a different shape; big, little, long, short, fat, or skinny. You'll get one and you might have to place the pistol in your hand differently than suggested to get one to work for you.
 Good luck,
Stan

thanks-I have read Bruce's book more times than I can count, and 
a lot of the posts here. I have  Nill grips on my pistols, so grip is
pretty consistent.  I could never get comfortable with factory grips.
That said, I will do what you suggest

Congratulations on your BE training and I hope I'll still be shooting when I'm your age.
To piggyback on your previous comment, I'd shoot 22 only. It's just easier on you.
If I'd known about that being a thing that's all I'd be shooting.
(Spent cash modifying 45 and I'm going to use it).
There is the Marine Corps bullseye training program that you can download a PDF of. Very helpful.
Stay with it, its just practice that will allow you to improve.

I spent a lot of time when I first started just holding my (empty) pistol up at arms length one handed and holding on a point on the opposite wall for increasing lengths of time.
It seemed to help build up shoulder strength. For me, the strength to hold up for sustained fire was a totally different ability than the the ability to hold a minimum arc of movement. That took a long time to develop and the minimum arc varies from day to day.

cobbwebb wrote:I spent a lot of time when I first started just holding my (empty) pistol up at arms length one handed and holding on a point on the opposite wall for increasing lengths of time.
It seemed to help build up shoulder strength. For me, the strength to hold up for sustained fire was a totally different ability than the the ability to hold a minimum arc of movement. That took a long time to develop and the minimum arc varies from day to day.

I suggest using lines (horizontal, vertical and both) rather than a point or bull for holding drills.  If you practice holding on a bull you can learn how to hold on the target without operating the trigger.  If you do use a bull for holding, make sure the hold is after a dry fire operation.

Some have had luck with holding up plastic milk/water containers with varying amounts of product.  But, don't overdo any of this.  A full gallon of water/milk is over 8 pounds.

Ed would dry fire training with lines as you recommend improve hold over time? 

One reads that once stance and natural point of aim has been worked out that hold (wobble, etc) is more or less innate and not really trainable.  But beside minimizing trigger disturbance can hold be improved and is it worth working on?

Ed Hall wrote:

cobbwebb wrote:I spent a lot of time when I first started just holding my (empty) pistol up at arms length one handed and holding on a point on the opposite wall for increasing lengths of time.
It seemed to help build up shoulder strength. For me, the strength to hold up for sustained fire was a totally different ability than the the ability to hold a minimum arc of movement. That took a long time to develop and the minimum arc varies from day to day.

I suggest using lines (horizontal, vertical and both) rather than a point or bull for holding drills.  If you practice holding on a bull you can learn how to hold on the target without operating the trigger.  If you do use a bull for holding, make sure the hold is after a dry fire operation.

Some have had luck with holding up plastic milk/water containers with varying amounts of product.  But, don't overdo any of this.  A full gallon of water/milk is over 8 pounds.

Old school exercise was to hold a phone book out by the spine to get grip strength in there too. 

Younger generation: Phone book?  What's that?

JHHolliday wrote:Ed would dry fire training with lines as you recommend improve hold over time? 

One reads that once stance and natural point of aim has been worked out that hold (wobble, etc) is more or less innate and not really trainable.  But beside minimizing trigger disturbance can hold be improved and is it worth working on?

The hold/wobble is determined by many physical factors and you will notice it changes from day to day, but trying to minimize it can be effective through exercise and diet.  In the case of diet, let's visit caffeine fo a moment. It is a stimulant and it is addictive.  The best approach is to maintain a steady level.  But, you should also study its effects on you.

As to physical exercise, holding drills train muscles and can minimize wobble for most people.  Even those with a physical disorder can benefit from holding drills.  No one ever eliminates the natural arc, but it can be lessened through drills.

Note that there are different elements to the movements.  We can see them, if we try.  There is a movement from the wrist, which is usually the fastest of the elements.  This can be trained pretty much away for most people and is the most distracting.  There is a slow movement from the shoulder that will move the hold around on the target,  This is less of a problem and can be minimized through stance.  And, there is a movement from the body.  This also can be minimized through stance.  This last element is usually a front to back movement in reference to your feet.  The last two movements cause more trouble in trying to "fix" them.

All of these elements can be minimized and they should be studied, documented and worked on in training.  But, part of that training should include recognizing the normal arc and accepting it without corrections.  Allowing the normal arc and aborting an abnormal arc can help with slow fire scores.