What's going on here? 22 corrosion

Stored in a relatively dry basement since 2008 in original cartons and box. Is the brass reacting with the lead at the bullet base? This corrosion is hard and prevents chambering. It's not every shell, mostly at sides and ends of tray. Acid vapor from the paper?

Pics?

Sounds like something I experienced with old (1994 vintage) SK Rifle Match from the CMP.  Many cartridges had a white crusty ring at the base edge of bullet at the case rim.  You might clarify your description. I assume it was from powder degradation (Vitavhouri) and outgassing.  No evidence of poor wet storage conditions.  Worst wouldn't pass gage test or chamber in a gun.  I could not remove the corrosion that I assumed was some oxididation product of lead with any satisfactory method (acid wipe, abrasion, etc.).  Afterall, I had a case of 5k! I sorted them, and shot those that would chamber in a rifle or a (cheap) pistol.  Accuracy was not up to snuff, with many shots in the rifle that would drop out of the group.  Good luck!

Ub…sorry…slow today 

Ya, I had some of that with SK Pistol Match too

Bruce, yours looks rather bluish (could be lighting) which suggests an oxide of copper.  Not soluble in water or alcohol, but you could try wiping with vinegar or ammonia.  It is not easy to dissolve, at least not by an easy and safe technique for your ammo that would leave you with something shootable.

We need a chemist in here! Here's pic of old Federal .38 HBWC with the similar lead crud issue- What's odd is the uglies are scattered throughout the boxes of 50. 2/3 of the box are ok. Scotch Brite and some spinning does remove it, but what a PIA!

I think it’s an oxide of the lead or the lube.  You didn’t say what the ammo brand was, but some of the lubes will oxidize and turn milky, especially the paraffin based lubes.

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/corroded-lead-bullets/15983/8

I’d determine if the lube is past its prime or the lead.  In any case I’d demote the ammo to the practice bin.

Paraffin (wax) is unlikely to oxidize unless of course you burn it (think candle).  Eley in top ammo uses a tallow mix that will oxidize ( think rancid fat) but is readily removeable and one could relube, but the benchrest types are pretty finicky about their ammo.  It is metal oxidation products that are tough to dissolve and so that is sort of a chemical test in itself.

Mine do clean up with a vinegar-soaked paper towel.

Did that 38 ammo bulge your 52 John?

Yes this corrosion stuff is HARD

I have some civil war bullets that are white as a ghost. Has to be an oxide of the lead they used back then. Given that yours is near the brass, perhaps there's some galvanic action or outgassing from the powder as well.

Bruce- no, definitely not. I have not used that Federal corroded ammo. Back when I did use some from those boxes,, I sorted out the good from the uglies.
If anybody is interested in the uglies, let me know. It's old Federal Red Box.

The white lead oxide phenomenon is soft, this is glass hard and can not chamber…I’ll try the fixes suggested above

bruce martindale wrote:The white lead oxide phenomenon is soft, this is glass hard and can not chamber…I’ll try the fixes suggested above

Bruce,

It's been nearly 30 years since I sat through a chemistry class, and I wasn't the best chemist even back then.  That said, I'll ask why you'd be tempted to try to put corroded rounds into any barrel you cared about?  To me, that's like trying to clean and use a lead bullet that's been dropped in the dirt.  Bullets are the cheap component in the shooting equation.  They're the disposable part, whether you shoot them or not.  Trying to save the bullets at the possible expense of the gun might be tempting, but it's a false economy.  I'd advise you to write off the questionable rounds and consider that the price of tuition.

As far as the chemistry goes, oxides tend to be crystalline in structure and harder than their elemental components on their own.  That's what makes oxides good abrasives.  Think aluminum oxide, cerium oxide, zinc oxide, cupric oxide, etc.  Machinists make laps out of soft elemental metals like tin, copper and lead because the soft elemental metals make great carriers for crystalline abrasives.  22 bullets are soft lead, and 22 casings tend to be pretty soft too.  Think of both as laps.  Any abrasives that embed in the soft surfaces will allow them to cut anything that's softer than the abrasive--including your chamber walls or your bore.  The lap concept is also how Scotch Brite works--aluminum oxide or silicon carbide particles embedded in soft plastic strands.  When scrubbing with Scotch Brite, it's possible to transfer the abrasives from one soft surface to another.  So, you're also gonna want to keep Scotch Brite away from any lead bullets that you intend to put down a bore you care about.  

Sorry to hear that you have the ammo issue, but my advise is to bite the bullet and toss them rather than succumbing to the temptation of trying to "fix" them. 

My two cents worth,

David

Point well taken David! So even if I "cleaned" the visible crusty stuff off with vinegar, there may still be enough gritty oxide in the lead to grind away the bore?
So I'll again offer up crusty Red Box .38 HBWC ammo for sale.

I haven't used them but your post says why. Tossed it is! Thanks

bruce martindale wrote:I haven't used them but your post says why. Tossed it is! Thanks

Do pull some bullets and tell us if there is corrosion inside.

Like this:




or this:

Bullet heels and interior of cases are clean and shiny so it's not from off gassing of powder. It's just a hard ring at the case/ heel junction 

Creeping crud on my Federal .38's (built in 1988)- Some of it has entered the case, so this indicates to me that the bullet is the source of the corrosion, and it did migrate inside the brass. Have about 140 of these, so they're for sale if anybody wants to, "polish their bore"! 

Slamfire wrote:

bruce martindale wrote:I haven't used them but your post says why. Tossed it is! Thanks

Do pull some bullets and tell us if there is corrosion inside.

Like this:




or this:

Back when the AMU first started winning with the AR/M16 platform, I was told they were using VV N135 under 80gr SMK's so I loaded some test batches up. Didn't work for me because the chamber reamer I used then was not long enough in the throat. Longer story shorter, a few years ago I got around to pulling those test rounds down and there was the corroded powder like the pics above. In some the corrosion even made it through the primer seal. At first I thought it was caused by the bulk cleaning method I used back then. A small cement mixer with slightly soapy water then a couple runs with clear water for a rinse and a week or so dry on a old screen door. Then I find some different test loads with N135 loaded in cases that were just cleaned in corn cob with the same powder lot with the same corrosion. All bullets were cup style jacketed SMK 80 gr with no exposed lead at the base.
Maybe 20 yrs in controlled environment storage in my case. I have no clue if it was caused by my loading conditions or the powder lot I had. Wish I had pics but they looked like the ones above with VV powder.

Looks like two different corrosion types going on here. That bluish buildup is copper sulfate- different from the grey growth on my pistol rounds. Same as on lead-acid battery terminal posts.
Regardless, we all have garbage ammo.

blindshooter wrote:

Slamfire wrote:

bruce martindale wrote:I haven't used them but your post says why. Tossed it is! Thanks

Back when the AMU first started winning with the AR/M16 platform, I was told they were using VV N135 under 80gr SMK's so I loaded some test batches up. Didn't work for me because the chamber reamer I used then was not long enough in the throat. Longer story shorter, a few years ago I got around to pulling those test rounds down and there was the corroded powder like the pics above. In some the corrosion even made it through the primer seal. At first I thought it was caused by the bulk cleaning method I used back then. A small cement mixer with slightly soapy water then a couple runs with clear water for a rinse and a week or so dry on a old screen door. Then I find some different test loads with N135 loaded in cases that were just cleaned in corn cob with the same powder lot with the same corrosion. All bullets were cup style jacketed SMK 80 gr with no exposed lead at the base.
Maybe 20 yrs in controlled environment storage in my case. I have no clue if it was caused by my loading conditions or the powder lot I had. Wish I had pics but they looked like the ones above with VV powder.

I remember the V-8 loads the AMU was using, and some reported the powder charge. The load was hot, hot, hot!

this was later AMU ammunition, I could tap the primers out of these cases.


As I mentioned in another post on gunpowder lifetime/deterioration, deniers have chased the knowledge of gunpowder deterioration from the shooting community. Of course industry has no reason to educate us on what not to buy, for we might get fickle and want "best buy" dates on our gunpowder kegs. Or pay less for old gunpowder.  The promotional articles we read are designed to create ill informed consumers who make irrational decisions. (Noam Chomsky)  The Storm Troopers of ignorance combined with industry have created a huge knowledge void in the shooting community about the lifetime of gunpowders. So, a good question is, why don't you know, what you don't know?

What I noticed about Vihtavuori powders is that a number of reports of deteriorated 1990's Vihtavuori have surfaced on the web. It is my opinion that the Finns, living in a cold environment, don't experience the accelerated aging that heat causes in the United States. And hence, reloaders reporting Vihtavuori powders going bad after 20 years.



break the seals on your gunpowder cans and sniff. If you smell bitter, dump the stuff out.




Old ammunition is like a box of chocolates, you never know what is inside:






and the old stuff can blow up your gun! (heat is used to accelerate aging on gunpowders)