red dots whats do you think?

does anyone have a preference in a red dot for bullseye shooting    what moa do you all recommend?  i have a 40% discount with vortex for being LE any suggestions? thanks rob 
  
ps i will be mounting in on a 52 and a 41

any suggestions on a mount type i know vortex makes on for the 52 and a rail for the 41?

I prefer 2mm dot. Using Aimpoint 9000sc, Matchdot and Holosun 403’s

thanks jim

I definitely need to preface this by saying that I shoot for Team Ultradot, so acknowledge my bias. Standard disclaimer: I'm not being paid by Ultradot to promote their products. I love the people and their products, but they definitely can't afford me to be a full-time shill, so what I say is only my opinion, and not coming from Ultradot.

That said, I very much prefer the Ultradot. Current generation is the Model 6, I believe?

I shoot 30mm MatchDot Ultradots on my .22 and my wad gun. Why? Field of vision (because conditions are widely variable out here in CA) and the ability to dial up or down dot intensity and dot size based on conditions (again based on external conditions, but also based on how my raggedy-ass hold is doing on any particular day.)

I like the 30mm to be able to regain context of where the target is during recoil. That gives me maybe 0.05 or 0.1 seconds of time for every shot in every series. I've been called "Skidder John" by some well-meaning but also sh*thead buddies

For me, I find that the Ultradot has been the best solution, over 10+ years of shooting the dot, and 35+ of shooting experience in total.

YMMV.

With all due respects to John, I do not like the new ultra dots.  Older ones were awesome, but the newer ones sometimes display a slight negative magnification.  I switched from the ultra dot to a Aimpoint H2 although I still have the ultra dot and loan it out periodically to new shooters that are exploring the sport.  Also like the dot clarity and crispness of the aimpoint when compared to the ultra dot.  

To be fair, one of my teammates has a 20 year old ultra dot that has one of the clearest, crispest dot I have ever seen and does not show a negative magnification. I would trade with him in a hearbeat but he is too smart for that.  

Thank you, 
Geo

We’re at a pretty amazing point with optics technology. It’s hard to get bad optics now. I mounted a Sig Romeo5, which is a $100-120 microdot I like using on .22s, on a .45 to see if it would die.

I ended up using it at Perry. It’s survived well over 2K rounds of .45 in practice and matches at this point. Plus, it has maintained zero when I have taken it off and remounted it.

I know another shooter at our club who has been running a Primary Arms microdot (similar to the Romeo5) on an AccuracyX .45 for four seasons.

I like the microdots because the modern examples (H1 clones) all have exceptional battery life, crisp 2 MOA dots, and a nice “feel” when the gun is in recoil. Also, because they’re light, my .45 didn’t need to be resprung to run the same loads.

I prefer the small dot sizes (2 MOA). They don’t hide the wobble. They show you exactly what’s happening as the shot breaks. Bigger dots can conceal that extra-precise feedback. With the bigger dots, that is actually a benefit for developing confidence and trigger focus, but I found that I shoot better with the finer dots. I found myself getting sloppy with my trigger and grip fundamentals when the dot seemed less wobbly. But, that’s very personal and subjective.

You’re not going to know what you prefer until you try some options out.

In the world of dots, I would classify three major varieties "RMR style", Micro (eg Aimpoint H1/H2 and clones), and tube (most ultradots, aimpoint 9000, and similar). 

My order of preference is tube, micro, then RMR. For tube style, I prefer 30mm tubes. I also run shades on all my tube and micro style dots as they help mitigate glare and keep the glass clean. 

I will attempt to be brand neutral as I don't have experience with all brands (or different styles within the same brand). Most any red dot with "work", but you often get what you pay for. To me, the quality of the glass is important as is the durability of the emitter and the controls. I like positive clicks for windage and elevation adjustment. Battery life and easy of changing battery is important, I would recommend keeping a spare battery or two on hand as well as any needed gizmo to facilitate the change. 

I have seen or heard of failures in most of the popular brands, most good companies stand behind their product and make it right. When I am at matches, I tend to have a backup gun incase a dot (battery or other) failure occurs.

Best thing you can do is to find a local league or match and talk to people.

Looking at the Vortex site, the Crossfire is probably what you would choose with that discount. Very similar to Holosun/Primary Arms etc

I have several Ultradots purchased around 2004 to 2006 and none showed the negative magnification. Wanting to buy a couple more, I viewed through a few display models at Larry Carter’s Ultradot area at the Camp Perry vendors row and noticed the annoying negative magnification in 2007 and 2010. I would not buy another with this defect. I’m surprised and disappointed that this has not been fixed. If other scope brands do not show this problem, why can’t Ultradot fix this? Perhaps John Bickar can approach Ultradot with this question.

It really doesn’t matter but the size of the dots are not the same as stated from scope to scope. The 4 moa of my 4-DOT scope is smaller than the 4 moa of my MATCH DOT scope.

As mentioned several times during our discussions, many have reported that the dot goes on and off. I also experienced the flickering of the dot on my favorite 4-DOT and sometimes the dot would disappear completely. Happy with the good warranty, I sent it back to the company but then the problem was never fixed. After years of frustration, I was ready to send it back again but I tried something that was supposed to be a no-no. It was suggested that we turn the intensity dial only clockwise and that’s what I always done. Since I was going to return it anyway, I turned the dial counter clockwise many times to see what would happen. Would the flickering get worse? No, the problem went away and so far this year, it’s been OK.

I still like the longer tube of the Ultradots and prefer the 30mm over the 1”. It is more natural to view through the tube to locate the dot. It would seem odd, but although the 30mm show a wider field, I also use PhotoEscape aperture rings to reduce the unwanted “visual noise.” Those who use these rings will note that the red dot would still appear while off the central opening and into the black perimeter so finding the bull is not a problem between shots during sustain fire.

With PhotoEscape’s permission, I would be happy to post some pictures of sight pictures while using the apertures.

I like Tubes, 

I just got a Holosun 407, look at my post on that dot. 

RMR is a pretty common floor plate , typically I do not like panels , I tried Vortex and Doctor but I pic up this Holosun dot pretty quick and the frame is thick. 

My next dot will likely be an enclosed emitter.

The benefit of a reflex is availability, guns are made for reflex dots like my q5, and weight. An Aimpoint micro weights about 5 ounces with the base where as the 407c weighs about 1.5 ounces. If this works out on my PPQ I would consider getting one of my RO's milled for a RMR footprint. Then I can run a #14 or #16 recoil spring and get a tighter lockup.

OK, I have some Ultradots in 1" and 30MM that are many, many years old on some 45 ACPs. I have not had one bit of trouble with them. They have served me well. They replaced some Tasco ProPoints that worked very well but had poor battery life.

Next, I like 4 moa dot as it is easier for this old shooter to see. The Aimpoint 9000SC is a heavy jewel that I like on 22s. I once had to send an Aimpoint 3000 back to have the switch repaired, at no charge. I sold it because I could not see the 2 MOA dot in sunlight. It worked great for indoor shooting.

My S&W model 52 is wearing a Bushnell RSX 250 RMR style sight in an EGW dovetail mount. Only downside is those windage and elevation adjustment screws are really small and the detents are not real distinct.

We all have our individual preferences and sometimes it takes some experimenting to see what we like best. That can get expensive trying out new equipment.

I have been using RMR style red dot sights for several years, both Burris and Vortex, 3 moa dot and mounted with EGW bases that replace the rear sight on my 52’s and 1911’s. I have a Clark barrel with integral Pic rail on my 41. I did not have to change loads or springs on any of my pistols when going to the red dots. 
FYI, I am 76 years old and used iron sights as long as I could. When I put a dot on my 52, I picked up enough points to convince me to swallow my pride and put dots on all of my pistols.

My 2 cents: 4 moa and a 1” tube is good for indoor or outdoor shooting. I definitely prefer the 2moa dot, but it is not essential to me. I wouldn’t consider a dot larger than 4moa.

If outdoor competition is your plan, the Matchdot 3 has the benefit of a 2moa dot and elevation adjustment turret so you do not need to remove the adjustment cap and then use a tool to adjust from 50 yard to 25 yard targets.

Lastly, I prefer a tube style. The reflex is not for me. I have such a Vortec and it sits in the box, unused.

First off, where are you are getting a red dot mount for your Model 52? That's a bit of a challenge these days.
Second, my most critical characteristic of a red dot is parallax. Inexpensive dots usually have a noticeable amount of parallax, which is not good for any shooter, let alone a new one.
Next, small dot, big dot is personal preference. some like the dot to cover the black at 50 yds, but I prefer to place a smaller dot in the X ring. Aim small, miss small.
I've tried 2X magnified dots, but their parallax was terrible.
Latest purchase was a Matchdot II, on a Model 52, and loving it. No negative magnification either.

john bickar wrote:I definitely need to preface this by saying that I shoot for Team Ultradot, so acknowledge my bias. Standard disclaimer: I'm not being paid by Ultradot to promote their products. I love the people and their products, but they definitely can't afford me to be a full-time shill, so what I say is only my opinion, and not coming from Ultradot.

That said, I very much prefer the Ultradot. Current generation is the Model 6, I believe?

I shoot 30mm MatchDot Ultradots on my .22 and my wad gun. Why? Field of vision (because conditions are widely variable out here in CA) and the ability to dial up or down dot intensity and dot size based on conditions (again based on external conditions, but also based on how my raggedy-ass hold is doing on any particular day.)

I like the 30mm to be able to regain context of where the target is during recoil. That gives me maybe 0.05 or 0.1 seconds of time for every shot in every series. I've been called "Skidder John" by some well-meaning but also sh*thead buddies

For me, I find that the Ultradot has been the best solution, over 10+ years of shooting the dot, and 35+ of shooting experience in total.

YMMV.

Skidder John!

1911a145 wrote:
Skidder John!

I believe I was quite clear in saying “well-meaning but sh*thead buddies.”

So I guess that the rightfully esteemed JB has already put the "skids" under what I am about to write! 

As stated by Jim above, the only product in the Vortex range that might typically be chosen by serious Bullseye shooters is the Crossfire (never seen one in the flesh, but from the website photo it looks like yet another clone of the Aimpoint H1 / Sig Romeo 5 / Holosun, etc. I read somewhere that all of them are actually manufactured at the Holosun factory in China to slightly different brand specifications - but that might not be a fact).

I owned many Vortex Venom reflex sights before I got into Bullseye and was very pleased with them. Vortex customer service is outstanding, but so is Aimpoint.

Choosing an "Aimpoint H1" footprint dot like the Vortex Crossfire will give your more readily available mount choices, particularly for your 52. Note however, that the mounts for a Crossfire have to be in two parts - a "rail" that goes on the gun and a "mount" that screws on to the underside of the sight. A Venom and similar Reflex type dots can be screwed directly onto a mounting plate from above. Here are two photos of a Vortex Venom (same footprint as the Crossfire I think) and a 1" Ultradot mounted on the 52-2 I once owned. I don't think I still have either of those mounts - if I find one I will let you know.




If you do go with the Crossfire or similar I recommend that you plan on getting some shade tubes. There are, AFAIK, two ways to go about that. Buy some purpose made tubes from PhotoEscape, Jon Shue or KC Crawford. Or make your own from carbonfiber tube (available from Amazon, etc.). Either way you secure the tubes to the sight with Green Loctite (maybe JS's have to be pressed on - have not tried them).

Here are some PhotoEscape shades on a SIG Romeo:-

And here are some carbonfiber tubes on a SIG Romeo:-


This is the tube you need (be careful cutting it with a Dremel wheel, the shards are extremely sharp):-
It is possible to loctite a 30mm Ultradot Extension tube directly into the carbonfiber if you want to hang an aperture or filter.

And that brings me to Ultradot. I have said many times previously that IMHO the 1" UD 4moa has the roundest, cleanest looking dot of any of the many sights I have tried. But, unfortunately, I suffered many, many failures, particularly with the 30mm UD's. I had to send at least 8 back to their service guy over a period of a couple of years. UD fixed them all, but I totally lost confidence in their products. Maybe I am too rough on equipment, or just a Klutz (careful now, JB!). So I switched to Aimpoint H1 4 moa, then I changed my mind again and now mostly favour Aimpoint 9000sc, both of which are at least twice the price of a Vortex or an Ultradot!

And, to be fair, I do not think that an Aimpoint 9000sc is a good choice for either of the guns you have in mind.

Good luck with your quest.

I have no objections, xmastershooter, and I thank you!  JB can also chime with his take on apertures.  However it might be worth of using different thread, so we do not "hijack" this one, and posts are geared towards answering OP's question.

AP

Alex, I think the most measured assessment that I have regarding your apertures I posted publicly as a review on your website.

Other than my comment throwing shade at my teammate, I think the thread has largely stuck to OP's topic.

I have not experienced the negative magnification nor failures reported by Roy and others with Ultradots. That doesn't mean that they didn't happen for you.

My experience with Ultradot customer service even prior to being on the team has been excellent.

Someone mentioned a Tasco ProPoint. I have one on a S&W Model 41 7" upper and the last time I put a battery in it and turned it on, it had a nice round dot and seemed like a good piece of gear. Haven't shot it, though.

Several people have stated to try multiple dots and go with what works for you. I agree. Some people will have good and not-so-good experiences.

Back in the 1980s one of my friends and mentors got so pissed off at an Aimpoint that he loaded it into the cannon at Canton McKinley Rifle and Pistol Club and yeeted that thing across the property.

Products and technology continue to evolve. I'm not a big equipment experimenter; I typically settle on something that I know that works and then "run what I brung."

The conversation is probably helpful for shooters less experienced than me, though.

john bickar wrote:Back in the 1980s one of my friends and mentors got so pissed off at an Aimpoint that he loaded it into the cannon at Canton McKinley Rifle and Pistol Club and yeeted that thing across the property.

LOL !!!!!!

I've had too many enraging things like that I've lost count.

WesG wrote:

john bickar wrote:Back in the 1980s one of my friends and mentors got so pissed off at an Aimpoint that he loaded it into the cannon at Canton McKinley Rifle and Pistol Club and yeeted that thing across the property.

LOL !!!!!!

I've had too many enraging things like that I've lost count.

Redefines “AIR MAIL” shipping!

Anyone play around with the Trijicon SRO wit 1 moa dot size?

I think a 1 MOA dot might get lost in a bright day.

Somone else said dot size preferences differ greatly and I agree.  I shoot a big dot, 8-12 moa depending on the day, since it appears, at least to me, to move less than smaller dots.  I don't want to aim them precisely, if I try that I get a serious case of chicken finger.  
Phil