Times getting short, I want to get a P100 tab before I retire.

I'm about to hit 22 years in the Army and before I get booted out (probably another 8 years) I would like to earn my Presidents 100 tab. Now a bit a background I'm a GM in USPSA and multi-gun Master in IDPA. Making GM damn near took me 10 years with no formal training and just enough practice to start winning matches.

Outside of the 6 Combat EIC points I have from shooting M17's I don't have any real experience in Service Pistol Matches at Camp Perry and hell I never been there either, I always thought Bullseye was for the old guys... Well it turns out I became old not to long ago.

I'm trying to develop a structured Dryfire & Livefire practice program but I'm struggling on what to work on. I can keep them in the black at 25 "most" of the time but its not like I'm break 85's on Rapids and Timed. The onehanded shooting this still pretty new to me, hard to rip my offhand off that pistol.

One of my issues is I don't know if I really have the correct shooting form either. Seen all the youtube vids of Zins and AMU talk about it and pretty much built my stance from that. 'vertical with shooting lane, offhand in pocket body relaxed but shooting arm stiff, gun pointing to target with a stiff handshake grip' I would say my hold is pretty tight but there are times when I brake a shot, called it good but actually tossed in the white somewhere, its never consistent but it "feels" consistent is the best way I can put it.

I'm going to see if the ARMU can take me out for the week at Perry in July just so I can experience the full match. But prior to that I want to make sure I do every damn thing prior, but this is where I need help to understand what and how I should practice.

Current gear (using for bullseye)
Sig P210, that will need some work on the trigger.
S&W 41
STI 2011 Edge in .45 that shoots lights out. (needs trigger work to bring up the weight.)

What do you all suggest that I can work on?

The P100 is slow fire and 50 yard centered. So, I’d approach training to that by tending to concentrate on 50 yard slow fire.

BUT…(you knew this was coming, right?)

I would run through the USMC Pistol Workbook ( a version is online here). Using your S&W 41 and your Sig 210 as your Centerfire. For that buy a case (5000) of 22 Std Velocity and 2 cases of 1000 that shoots reasonably well in your 9mm. Shoot that for the work book. If a particular stage proves elusive (for me that was two consecutive 10 tens at 25 yards), continue with the exercise, just return to it until you get it. Dabble in the 45. Once you get comfortable in single handed pistol, get on the mailing list of every marksmanship unit you can find. Search for FORSCOM matches you can find, if not find the CMP ( theCMP.org ) and see if there are any matches listed in your area. Nothing like match experience! This year may be optimistic for being allowed to tag along with the USAMU team, but next year is doable.

Wobbley wrote:The P100 is slow fire and 50 yard centered.  So, I’d approach training to that by tending to concentrate on 50 yard slow fire.

BUT…(you knew this was coming, right?)

I would run through the USMC Pistol Workbook ( a version is online here).  Using your S&W 41 and your Sig 210 as your Centerfire.  For that buy a case (5000) of 22 Std Velocity and 2 cases of 1000 that shoots reasonably well in your 9mm. Shoot that for the work book.  If a particular stage proves elusive  (for me that was two consecutive 10 tens at 25 yards), continue with the exercise,  just return to it until you get it.  Dabble in the 45.  Once you get comfortable in single handed pistol, get on the mailing list of every marksmanship unit you can find.  Search for FORSCOM matches you can find, if not find the CMP ( theCMP.org ) and see if there are any matches listed in your area.   Nothing like match experience!  This year may be optimistic for being allowed to tag along with the USAMU team, but next year is doable.  

Thanks! That is some great info right there. And to clarify, I'm in the ARMU (Army Reserve Marksmanship Unit) under the CAST (Combat Action Shooting Team) We just got done shooting AFSAM and the Pistol team NCOIC was talking about bringing more people to Perry for this year, I put my name in but I'm not technically a 'cheap date'. So we'll see what happens, but I figure either way I can start getting serious in practice. Something to note, just talked to the Pistol NCOIC and he just let me know that my STI .45 Edge is legal to shoot in service matches too. So I might look into using that instead of the P210. Now need to to find this USMC pistol workbook.

Docmedic wrote:Now need to to find this USMC pistol workbook.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t5966-usmc-pistol-team-workbook

Ashley beat me to it. I usually ask, "where are you on the USMC workbook?"

Be prepared to stand out in the middle of a 150-acre cow field in the f*cking pouring rain with 400 of your closest friends.

If Rob Leatham ("TGO") can make P100, you can too.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t5966-usmc-pistol-team-workbook

I’m working through it myself. If I may, can you identify the base or installation you’re currently serving in? That might help to identify other opportunities.

Wobbley wrote:https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t5966-usmc-pistol-team-workbook

I’m working through it myself.  If I may, can you identify the base or installation you’re currently serving in?  That might help to identify other opportunities.

Fort Carson, Colorado.

I'll be amazed if you find anything bullseye here. We are pretty deep in USPSA/ IDPA/ multi-gun here.

https://ct.thecmp.org/app/v1/index.php?do=matchRegistrationListUpcoming&filter=location_state

There ain’t much near you… but you could come to the Western CMP games in early October in Phoenix AZ. This is essentially a minin”Camp Perry…. There would be the Phoenix Mid-Winter pistol matches at Phoenix Rod and gun Club,next February.

Docmedic wrote:

Wobbley wrote:https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t5966-usmc-pistol-team-workbook

I’m working through it myself.  If I may, can you identify the base or installation you’re currently serving in?  That might help to identify other opportunities.

Fort Carson, Colorado.

I'll be amazed if you find anything bullseye here. We are pretty deep in USPSA/ IDPA/ multi-gun here.

Colorado Rifle Club. Byers. Next 2700 match on May 19. You'd be welcome. Send me an email address and I'll forward the program etc to you.

Docmedic wrote:

Wobbley wrote:https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t5966-usmc-pistol-team-workbook

I’m working through it myself.  If I may, can you identify the base or installation you’re currently serving in?  That might help to identify other opportunities.

Fort Carson, Colorado.

I'll be amazed if you find anything bullseye here. We are pretty deep in USPSA/ IDPA/ multi-gun here.

USOPTC, though.

It's not Bullseye, but you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy better opportunity to improve your one-handed shooting skills.

There is a lot of crossover between ISSF-style shooting and Bullseye. Take advantage of that opportunity while you are so close.

You might learn something. I will warn you that ISSF disciplines are HFW.

straybrit wrote:

Docmedic wrote:

Wobbley wrote:https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t5966-usmc-pistol-team-workbook

I’m working through it myself.  If I may, can you identify the base or installation you’re currently serving in?  That might help to identify other opportunities.

Fort Carson, Colorado.

I'll be amazed if you find anything bullseye here. We are pretty deep in USPSA/ IDPA/ multi-gun here.

Colorado Rifle Club. Byers. Next 2700 match on May 19. You'd be welcome. Send me an email address and I'll forward the program etc to you.

I thought you were in AZ? You're in CO now?

(Assuming that straybrit is who I think it is, that used to shoot with us in CA.)

I shot at Byers a few times when I lived in COS. It's way out East. Good Camp Perry training.

john bickar wrote:

straybrit wrote:

Docmedic wrote:

Wobbley wrote:https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t5966-usmc-pistol-team-workbook

I’m working through it myself.  If I may, can you identify the base or installation you’re currently serving in?  That might help to identify other opportunities.

Fort Carson, Colorado.

I'll be amazed if you find anything bullseye here. We are pretty deep in USPSA/ IDPA/ multi-gun here.

Colorado Rifle Club. Byers. Next 2700 match on May 19. You'd be welcome. Send me an email address and I'll forward the program etc to you.

I thought you were in AZ? You're in CO now?

(Assuming that straybrit is who I think it is, that used to shoot with us in CA.)

I shot at Byers a few times when I lived in COS. It's way out East. Good Camp Perry training.

Yeah - been here for a while now. I just enjoy the 1000 mile drive to Phoenix. Or something like that.

Byers is indeed out in the prairie and prone to weather.

The Olympic Center….would be a great place to work on air pistol.  That is a great way to build slow fire skills. There MAY be some bullseye or Olympic activity at the USAF Academy.

Wobbley wrote:The Olympic Center….would be a great place to work on air pistol.  That is a great way to build slow fire skills.  There MAY be some bullseye or Olympic activity at the USAF Academy.

I cannot pinpoint when NRA introduced HM for pistol. Mid-90s?

I can say that I made the jump from MA to HM in Bullseye once I started shooting a lot of air pistol.

A lot else going on in my life at that time (lots of HFW), but I'm pretty confident in saying that if you can break 570s in air pistol, you can make HM in Bullseye, and get P100 along the way. P100 will be a just a glimmer in your rear-view mirror.

If you're stationed at Fort Carson, I would definitely recommend taking advantage of that opportunity at USOPTC.

straybrit wrote:

Docmedic wrote:

Wobbley wrote:https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t5966-usmc-pistol-team-workbook

I’m working through it myself.  If I may, can you identify the base or installation you’re currently serving in?  That might help to identify other opportunities.

Fort Carson, Colorado.

I'll be amazed if you find anything bullseye here. We are pretty deep in USPSA/ IDPA/ multi-gun here.

Colorado Rifle Club. Byers. Next 2700 match on May 19. You'd be welcome. Send me an email address and I'll forward the program etc to you.

Driving 2.5 hours is a little out there for me, but I'll have to pass for this month. I'll be shooting Heavy Metal 3gun National Championships in Raton during that time frame.

I found the MTU workbook difficult to use because it didn’t explain HOW to achieve the given goals. Without the needed training and coaching, I felt like a monkey with a typewriter trying to copy Shakespear.

Do you my book? It’s only $10

The USMC workbook is a training regimen, but is results oriented rather than “how-to”. Which makes some sense in that your build, basic strength, and general physiology dictates a lot of the “how-to”.

It looks like the only place nearby to shoot Bullseye is in Byers CO. But they do have a Regional coming next month. That may have a CMP Service Pistol matche?

Docmedic wrote:I'm about to hit 22 years in the Army and before I get booted out (probably another 8 years) I would like to earn my Presidents 100 tab. Now a bit a background I'm a GM in USPSA and multi-gun Master in IDPA. Making GM damn near took me 10 years with no formal training and just enough practice to start winning matches.

Outside of the 6 Combat EIC points I have from shooting M17's I don't have any real experience in Service Pistol Matches at Camp Perry and hell I never been there either, I always thought Bullseye was for the old guys... Well it turns out I became old not to long ago.

Current gear (using for bullseye)
Sig P210, that will need some work on the trigger.
S&W 41
STI 2011 Edge in .45 that shoots lights out. (needs trigger work to bring up the weight.)

What do you all suggest that I can work on?

Docmedic,

I earned my P100 tab as a Lieutenant Colonel with about 20 years in service. I did it shooting an original Swiss P210-6. So you're on the right track!

Here are my two pieces of advice:
1) Get into as many bullseye or international pistol type matches as you can find. I was stationed in Germany and was shooting a variety of 22, air pistol, and centerfire matches on a very regular basis.
2) Once you're more comfortable in shooting bullseye, pick a year that you're going to get the Tab (let's say, 2025) and plan for 6-8 months of very intensive training before Camp Perry. I basically shot 3 days a week for 6-7 months before Camp Perry.

My training was at 50m (using the U.S. 50yd target) and 25m turning targets (using the U.S. 25yd target).

Don't worry about Timed Fire ... if you can shoot Rapid Fire, you can shoot Timed Fire.

As others noted, you have to really hammer down your Slow Fire.

I was shooting about 100 rounds of 22 and 100-150 rounds of 9mm every session.  I also added in quite a bit of 10m air pistol (helps with your 50yd Slow Fire).

On my first trip to Perry, as an Expert, I legged out in pistol and got my "P28" tab.  Prior to that I had been shooting irons, shot all Perry with irons including warm-up and teams with irons.  Seems all my ballgun work at Perry was done in early morning, so I had the sight settings right out of the gate.  My advice?  Practice and train with  those iron sights.

Alright just got back from Perry for the first time, I shot the 2700 with 22, 9mil, and 45. Both the 900s for 22 and 9mm went relatively well since I never shot a full course of fire for bullseye ever. Scoring 789 and 741 respectively, unfortunately the 45 was a different story with a score of 677. 

By the time I got to the 45 900, I had already shot the SAFS M9 match, two 900s, 22 EIC, Revo EIC and two team matches plus I had a strange feeling that my Sig 1911 didn't like the 185JHP from AA, also I had to hold the pistol different with a 6o'clock hold due to the rear sight was bottom out at 50. Honestly I thought it was the pistol so I decided to shoot the 9mm at P100 and NTI, what I realize though after having 3 days worth of matches plus a long day of practice prior the muscles in my right arm were tiring and I was over muscling the gun to keep it on target. Several shots where I thought I called good on the 9mm was off target or surprise! low left. I just couldn't keep my arm steady enough as I pulled the trigger strait back. I won't post the P100 or my NTI as they were not great, I believe I actually had 2 off paper misses on both matches which sucked but it is what it is.

Pistol I used for the matches.
SW41 -22LR
SA1911 RO Target 9mm, Sig P210 Target 9mm, Staccato 2011
SW627 Performance for revolver
Sig Sauer 1911 STX - .45

22 went far better then the other two guns due to me shooting that the most prior to going out to Perry, I must had shot anywhere between 300-500 rounds a week a month prior to Nationals. Sig P210 shot well for me but I had to keep taking it back to my work bench to tweak it to get the trigger at 4lbs. As I was heading out to perry I found a used SA 1911 RO target 9mm for 550, so ended up picking it up as I was heading out there. As mention above the Sig 1911 rear sight (adjustable low novak sight) was bottom out at 50 with 185HP's and there was no way to fix that problem when I got there as I didn't have the ammo available till I got on ground so I had to work what I had.

Big take aways that i got for my first year shooting this match,

1. Arm conditioning, I was amazed how tired my muscles in my right arm got after spending 4-5 days shooting. I was squeezing extra hard at the end of the week just to try to keep steady and that didn't work at all.

2. Ammo selection, the 115JHP shot great out of both the P210 and 1911 at the 25 yard line, but I don't think that was the case at 50. I didn't have anytime to actually go test the Sig out to 50 to see what it is doing and that was my mistake, and to use a gun I just bought two days prior to the match with ZERO data was probably not a great idea but I figure since I had it, and I had a strong idea that I wasn't going to get P100 this year I wanted to see how it shot under match conditions. I had zero data on the 45 Ammo I was using for the Sig and it showed horribly.

3. Know how Alibies work, during .22 EIC I had a light strike on the 3rd round of Timed fire. So I raised my hand RO came by, told him I jammed up, I was told to go ahead and put the gun on the table, and I went USPSA brained and cleared the gun and got ready for the next string... So no Alibi granted and saved 3 shots at Timed fired which sank my EIC score.

Overall I think this should be achievable by next year if I put the practice in, I'm really fighting myself not to spend money and get a RRA or Accuracy X pistol like most of the guys on the team have. The biggest issue right now is I need to pick a pistol and stick with it, while it was fun to shoot all the guns I brought I can tell by doing that there is no good way to get better if I don't lock down on one gun.

Since getting your P100 is your goal, I’d concentrate on shooting your service pistol.  You have some good ones to choose from.  But of the bunch, I’d pick either the SA1911RO and the Sig STX.  If you need to try some different ammo, Federal makes 185 JSWC in their “Gold Medal” line.  https://www.luckygunner.com/45-acp-185-gr-fmj-swc-match-federal-gold-medal-50-rounds#rid=AmmoSeek   Try a box or two.  Test it at 25 yards if it won’t hold the 10 then the gun needs to be looked at.  

A 2700, plus a P100 and EICs up and down…is a lot.  So I’d concentrate.  And train accordingly.  I’d only shoot 22 50-80 rounds then 45 or 9mm for 100-120 rounds in any given session.  You can overtrain.  So maybe 2X a week at most and more likely 1x a week.  Use the USMC work good as a guide.  If you reload, you can make very good JHP match loads with commercially available bullets and plenty of good recipes to choose from.  

But you need to determine the available “best pistol” first.

Alibi’s: sounds like you did it correctly. You never want to put an uncleared gun on the bench. Maybe you misunderstood, or the RO was wrong. When told to you drop the mag, and clear the gun. But, if you attempted to clear you get nothing!

The nine can be a finicky beast. Might try some AA 147’s

james r chapman wrote:Alibi’s: sounds like you did it correctly. You never want to put an uncleared gun on the bench. Maybe you misunderstood, or the RO was wrong. 

So the RO explained to me that they needed to see the gun "inoperable" first and since I cleared it before I could demonstrate it I gave up my chance on the alibi. The reason he told me to put it on the table was more so they can get through the string prior to inspection. Lesson learned. I have 147s HAPs laying around somewhere, I'm going to try to load a few and see how they do out of both guns.

Ah, ok, never try to fix it till they say clear it. Unless of course you’re out of alibis!
I misunderstood.

I'd shoot the P210 religiously for awhile. If you want to get the trigger to 4 lbs, buy a standard trigger spring from this website: https://www.gunfactory.ch
Click on the gun icon on the left -> click on P210 -> click on Ersatzteile -> Abzugsfeder Standard -> checkout. If it still doesnt make weight with that standard/military trigger spring, stick a browning hi power magazine safety spring inside of that spring: https://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/prod/B515569901

With those springs doubled up you'll end up with about a 3 lb 1st stage and 1.25 lb 2nd stage and you can play with the 2nd stage by threading and unthreading the Schlagfederstangen-mutter on your hammer strut. 

I find this to be an exceptionally useful set up especially when shooting in the wind and/or during rapid fire as it provides a lot of feedback to my brain as to where i am in the trigger pull. I can come right up to the 2nd stage where i slow my trigger pull as i roll through the last pound.

I legged out with my swiss P210 at Canton then shot a borrowed gun from Steve/AXI for all of Perry save revolver and .22. Learning how to pull a crisp 1911 trigger was definitely a LOT different than what I was used to with my P210, but it was simply the more accurate gun. It did well for me I think, about as well as I think I would have performed with my P210 which I have probably 10x as many rounds through by that point and probably 100x as many dry fires. Goes to show that Steve makes a great gun

If I HADN'T legged out at Canton/chose not to shoot it, I would have been high non distinguished for the P100 (by a pretty wide margin) and NTI and would have gotten a free gun from Accuracy X   Oh well, part of me felt like it would have been sand bagging to do that. 

Good luck for next year!

john bickar wrote:

Docmedic wrote:

Wobbley wrote:https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t5966-usmc-pistol-team-workbook

I’m working through it myself.  If I may, can you identify the base or installation you’re currently serving in?  That might help to identify other opportunities.

Fort Carson, Colorado.

I'll be amazed if you find anything bullseye here. We are pretty deep in USPSA/ IDPA/ multi-gun here.

USOPTC, though.

It's not Bullseye, but you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy better opportunity to improve your one-handed shooting skills.

There is a lot of crossover between ISSF-style shooting and Bullseye. Take advantage of that opportunity while you are so close.

You might learn something. I will warn you that ISSF disciplines are HFW.

Nobody likes ISSF shooters