Two-Handed Grip

First topic message reminder :

Among those who have become accustomed to the traditional, one-handed hold required by bullseye shooting, many are of the (quiet) opinion that the "modern," two-handed grip is inherently effeminate and emasculating.  Do you agree?

james r chapman wrote:Maybe allow revolver use either.

My USPSA rig; at first they just looked at me, but after the first stage the other shooter's were okay.  

SaraiEsq wrote:Changing the standards changes the game.

And there is already a provision for two-hand probationary matches.

You are in fact correct. However, how many registered and approved Two-hand probationary matches have actually been offered in the 10+ years since Section 24 was added to the PP rule book. I sent an inquiry to the NRA last fall  if the NRA was planning on staging such a match. This is the response I received,

"Good Morning Sir,
The NRA matches themselves won’t be listed as Probationary Matches but you are more than welcome to shoot two-handed. Just inform the Match Director that you’ll be shooting 2 handed and they will be more than happy to accommodate. Hope to see you next summer!"


It seems the rules are a bit more fluid than one might expect. 


Welcome to the monkey house.




-m-

Brian Mason wrote:While we’re airing out dirty laundry, I would like to point out that John Bickar’s mom didn’t really build his ballgun. That is an unfounded rumor.

So is roughly 90% of everything else he says ;-)

WesG wrote:

Brian Mason wrote:While we’re airing out dirty laundry, I would like to point out that John Bickar’s mom didn’t really build his ballgun. That is an unfounded rumor.

So is roughly 90% of everything else he says ;-)

can shoot tho

Brian Mason wrote:While we’re airing out dirty laundry, I would like to point out that John Bickar’s mom didn’t really build his ballgun. That is an unfounded rumor.

Also, to correct any rumors floating around, John Bickar did not shoot the man in the boat in Lake Erie and cause the .22 match at Camp Perry 2023 to be cancelled.

chiz1180 wrote:

WesG wrote:

Brian Mason wrote:While we’re airing out dirty laundry, I would like to point out that John Bickar’s mom didn’t really build his ballgun. That is an unfounded rumor.

So is roughly 90% of everything else he says ;-)

can shoot tho

Jury's still out on that. Let's see what 2024 brings.

Wes is on point, tho

Whilst I am not privy to the inquest report for the demise of that unfortunate person in Lake Erie, I am pretty sure that alcohol and incompetence were the prime factors. The fact that the in place safety protocols dictated that all shooting be halted whilst they searched the lake safety zone, even though our 22 handgun rounds would be unlikely to even reach the lake, is also unfortunate. But I guess that it goes "with the territory".

Not complaining, just commenting!

I'm not opposed to two handed shooting. Just create a division for it as "22 Only" and let people shoot.
Most shooters are a little passed their twenties, so whatever gets them in or keeps them in the game I'm for.

Just my observation and opinion.

Texasref wrote:I'm not opposed to two handed shooting. Just create a division for it as "22 Only" and let people shoot.
Most shooters are a little passed their twenties, so whatever gets them in or keeps them in the game I'm for.

Just my observation and opinion.

Section 24 in the NRA PP Rulebook provides the foundation for a 2-hand shooting event. BUT, to my knowledge there has never been such an event. The NRA official responsible for Pistol Competition seemingly didn't even know there was such an event. And, while there are informal competitions staged, primarily local Leagues, no one can name an Approved or Registered Two-hand even ever staged. My question continues to be "Why?"

-m-

I have the utmost respect for those who shoot well one handed.  

The one handed hold is antiquated.  Eliminating it would be frustrating for those who trained hard and had the talent to make it work.  

Why do we train with firearms?  The challenge is part of it.  Competition?  Sure.  , It is also training for possible conflict.  Handguns are weapons after all.  Using a one handed hold in a fight would be a poor choice.   

Try as I might I will not ever shoot well enough to go distinguished one handed.  Lots of others are in the same boat.  At a certain point I gave up on the idea because it is not possible for me to improve.  Improving is the goal, it keeps it interesting.  I can however add up to about 10 points by going two handed.  

Analogy, I have a passing interest in ham radio.  Ham radio is almost all old guys.  It is is fading away.  In the past it was necessary to learn Morse code to get a general license.  That was a deal breaker for me.  No amount of effort was enough for me to learn Morse code.  I gave up on my desire to get licensed and set up a station.  Recently that requirement had been eliminated and there are modern "cheats" to send and receive code.  That is a game changer for me and other beginners.  I am reconsidering my choice.  

My point...........  The one hand requirement limits bullseye to the most dedicated and naturally talented shooters.  They are mostly older guys.  Let's face it, shooting is a dwindling sport.  The one handed requirement I much like Morse code.  IT limits the number of shooters who participate.   IT limits the ability to attract young shooters.  Perhaps it should be re-examined.

Bullseye could be divided up in Divisions.

One hand with tricked out pistol 

One hand with stock pistol

One hand with tricked out pistol and Red Dot

One hand with stock pistol and Red Dot

Two hand with tricked out pistol

Two hand with stock pistol.

So, a person could win their division, like a lot of other shooting sports.

Scota4570 wrote:I have the utmost respect for those who shoot well one handed.  

************

My point...........  The one hand requirement limits bullseye to the most dedicated and naturally talented shooters.  They are mostly older guys.  Let's face it, shooting is a dwindling sport.  The one handed requirement I much like Morse code.  IT limits the number of shooters who participate.   IT limits the ability to attract young shooters.  Perhaps it should be re-examined.

There is already a two-hand event structure within the PP rules, cf., Section 24. The furthest distance to be shot is 25 yards using the usual 25 yard targets. It may be shot with one- or two -hands.

So the absence of a rule isn't the issue, the lack of completion opportunities is. Not even the NRA at their national championship has staged a Section 24 match. I believe the rule was included in 2013 so there has been more than adequate time for something to happen. 

I shoot 4-5 times a week indoors. I come into contact with a lot of young shooters. Most of their focus is self-defense plus having a good time. They strive for accuracy defined as hitting the target at which you are aiming rather than hitting the third button on the bad-guys shirt. It's accuracy versus precision. 
Accuracy can be obtained pretty easily when you are shooting at a target 15-25 feet away. To consistently shoot tens at 50 feet on a B-2 target you have to train... a lot. It is an unusual young person who sets out to accomplish the latter.



-m-

Scota4570 wrote:I have the utmost respect for those who shoot well one handed.  

The one handed hold is antiquated.  Eliminating it would be frustrating for those who trained hard and had the talent to make it work.  

Why do we train with firearms?  The challenge is part of it.  Competition?  Sure.  , It is also training for possible conflict.  Handguns are weapons after all.  Using a one handed hold in a fight would be a poor choice.   

Try as I might I will not ever shoot well enough to go distinguished one handed.  Lots of others are in the same boat.  At a certain point I gave up on the idea because it is not possible for me to improve.  Improving is the goal, it keeps it interesting.  I can however add up to about 10 points by going two handed.  

Analogy, I have a passing interest in ham radio.  Ham radio is almost all old guys.  It is is fading away.  In the past it was necessary to learn Morse code to get a general license.  That was a deal breaker for me.  No amount of effort was enough for me to learn Morse code.  I gave up on my desire to get licensed and set up a station.  Recently that requirement had been eliminated and there are modern "cheats" to send and receive code.  That is a game changer for me and other beginners.  I am reconsidering my choice.  

My point...........  The one hand requirement limits bullseye to the most dedicated and naturally talented shooters.  They are mostly older guys.  Let's face it, shooting is a dwindling sport.  The one handed requirement I much like Morse code.  IT limits the number of shooters who participate.   IT limits the ability to attract young shooters.  Perhaps it should be re-examined.

Not sure where or from whom you may have been trained to use a pistol defensively, much less than offensively.  Being proficient with a pistol with 1 hand, both strong hand and weak hand, has been taught and practiced for decades.  You are not going to be able to choose which hand to use or what stance to use in a gunfight.  Bullseye teaches and reinforces the primary fundamentals of Marksmanship.  Even our most elite, Tier 1 warriors will tell you they are at the level they operate because they do 1 thing, master the Fundamentals.

NukeMMC wrote:
Not sure where or from whom you may have been trained to use a pistol defensively, much less than offensively.  Being proficient with a pistol with 1 hand, both strong hand and weak hand, has been taught and practiced for decades.  You are not going to be able to choose which hand to use or what stance to use in a gunfight.  Bullseye teaches and reinforces the primary fundamentals of Marksmanship.  Even our most elite, Tier 1 warriors will tell you they are at the level they operate because they do 1 thing, master the Fundamentals.

What does practical pistol gunfight fantasy have to do with PP or even marksmanship? While I sure there are people in this group who have actually been in a gunfight, I'll bet there aren't many. To those who have, thank you for your service as military, law enforcement, security officer, etc. 
but for the majority of people who take practical/defensive pistol courses the chances of being in an actual "gunfight" are slim and none. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be prepared but what it does mean is that you might put the gunfight "fantasy" where it belongs as it has nothing to do with most shooting sport games.

I have taken practical/defensive pistol courses each of them dealt with fundamental marksmanship as the first item in the syllabus. PP is a competition that demands the highest degree of marksmanship. The level of proficiency demanded to excel in the practical pistol disciplines is less than that demanded on PP because the practical game is about accuracy and speed as well as physical ability to move in an obstacle rich environment. 

Yeah, "...but we got rapid fire in PP" you might say. Yes, but you've got ten seconds to fire five shots. To excel in action pistol you have to be faster with a larger envelope of accuracy. The games are different in the same way that ISSF rapid fire is different from NRA/CMP PP rapid fire... four seconds five different targets.

Mastering the fundamentals is a necessary achievement for success in ANY sport. PP demands a high degree of proficiency in fundamental handgun marksmanship but that higher degree is necessary a part of the PP game. In fact, it is a big part of the game. Other shooting games have other skills in addition to marksmanship that must be mastered to excel. 

In short, take joy in the game you play and leave it at that. 


-m-

If I understand a Section 24 match correctly, it would be two-handed with both slow fire and sustained fire at 25 yards, using 25 yard targets for both.  

In terms of logistics, would it be possible to run a regular match side by side with a Sec 24 match, on the same range, with some folks shooting the long line and others the short line simultaneously?   Or would you need to have a separate event?

The local range has hoop target holders on the short line, which are perpendicular to the firing line when we shoot the long line, with a single control for all the targets. If half of the field is shooting the short line and the other half the long line, those on the long line would have to shoot through the hoops.  At my humble level, that would be a distraction my scores really don't need.

Perhaps there is an obvious solution to what I perceive to be a problem.  Perhaps the logistics of hosting a Sec 24 match in conjunction with a regular match explain why there are so few.

SaraiEsq wrote:If I understand a Section 24 match correctly, it would be two-handed with both slow fire and sustained fire at 25 yards, using 25 yard targets for both.  

In terms of logistics, would it be possible to run a regular match side by side with a Sec 24 match, on the same range, with some folks shooting the long line and others the short line simultaneously?   Or would you need to have a separate event?

The local range has hoop target holders on the short line, which are perpendicular to the firing line when we shoot the long line, with a single control for all the targets. If half of the field is shooting the short line and the other half the long line, those on the long line would have to shoot through the hoops.  At my humble level, that would be a distraction my scores really don't need.

Perhaps there is an obvious solution to what I perceive to be a problem.  Perhaps the logistics of hosting a Sec 24 match in conjunction with a regular match explain why there are so few.

The late Cecil Rhodes and I had a public conversation on this site on exactly this issue. He pointed out, as have you, the problem of simultaneous 50 and 25 year shooting. I think both of yo are correct. The Section 24 provision seems to envision a separate match and there is nothing wrong with this except if your a purist. I had a Match Director when I asked if he could take a Two-hand match tell me "Bulleye is one-hand. Always was, always will be." and then suggest I vacate the premises. Two-hand is not a competitor to PP, it is a compliment. Thus the Provisional nature of Section 24. 

Section 24, which I venture to say few of this group have actually read, is problematic in that it does not provide guidance on hand position. I recommended to the Competition Committee a couple of years ago that it referred to the appropriate sections in the Silhouette Pistol rules dealing with acceptable hand positions for two-hand shooting. Their response? Crickets.

The 22 Aggregate match was an attempt by the NRA to attract a new group of shooters who wanted to shoot the 2700 Aggregate Match but could/would/can  not shoot the .45. BUT, the .45 is an integral part of the 2700 and as such should not be eliminated. THE NRA was smart enough to allow shooters to get classification without the .45. You are one of those who got into the PP game via the .22 Aggregate Match. Good for you. 

Determining the participation level for a two-hand match is difficult since there are no records of such matches being offered for NRA Approval or Registration. So, we have to look at where two-hand matches are being staged, that means local private and public ranges. I am a member of two ranges. One has an informal group meeting on Monday nights with 2 or 3 one hand shooters and the same number of two-hand. The other range is a bit more organized and last week had 2 one-hand shooters and 11 two-hand shooters. There have been posts that have reported that two-hand participation in PP is growing.

BTW, good fortune for your success at Perry and Atterberry this year.

-m-

While some things change, many others remain the same.  At one time many years ago I shot BE in several different locations and also at the several local "police" leagues.  It was mandatory to only shoot with one hand and so we did so.  A few years later we really started to train our police recruits hard on using two hands for any pistol shooting and that became the norm statewide.  There were and still are far too many benefits to shooting with two hands versus one hand to list here.  After a few years we discovered after watching many videos of actual police shootings that many officers were not using two hands and were in fact drawing from the holster and employing almost a one handed point shooting technique.  The problem was and may still be, that they were never taught point shooting one handed.  So they were using a technique they themselves employed.  Speed is of utmost import in a gunfight, but so too is accuracy, but not bullseye accuracy.  So after watching multiple videos on what officers were doing we decided to start giving them training on one-handed shooting, including one handed point-shooting at close range, so they had some type of foundation for it.  We eventually put the one-handed techniques into our training program and it worked well for us.

When I first started my LE career my agency devoted an entire week to what we called Bullseye Shooting in recruit school.  It was by the book and involved only using one hand.  That type of shooting quickly went by the wayside when we started training to use two hands.  In fact we did very little one handed shooting save for those situations where one hand or arm was incapacitated.  Lets face it, in order to be a good to very good one handed shooter it takes a lot of time and ammunition both of which are in short supply to most shooters and police departments.  Ammunition is expensive as you all know and time is money too.

Fast forward to today and I have to laugh when I hear the arguments about one-handed versus two handed BE shooting.  Other than learning the basic fundamentals of shooting, one handed shooting is a dead end street.  It simply serves no real purpose in this day and age other than a starting point for a new shooter, especially a new law enforcement shooter.  In my area traditional one handed BE shooting is almost a thing of the past.  The only place I still see it much is at indoor ranges where they use BE rules to keep shooters under utmost control and not shoot the lights out.  Not surprisingly the rules are different for different facilities.  One place will say you can only use one hand and another will say you can use two hands.  What's up with that?  Lead, follow or get out of the way!  And why are BE leagues and competitions losing shooters?

At one time I was a big proponent of only using one hand for BE shooting like many on this site, but life made me change my beliefs.  I had a real job and a family and not a big salary.  Money and time were short and I couldn't devote enough of either to staying good at BE shooting.  Something had to give and it was BE shooting, plus it held no relevance to me in the real world of law enforcement shooting.  Then the real shocker hit me...old age.  I discovered after I retired that I no longer had the steadiness required for one-handed BE shooting.  Even using two hands is a real chore for me now and I am usually rewarded with less than stellar results even using two hands.  So you must forgive me when I hear the arguments for only allowing one handed BE shooting.  I have yet to see any good BE shooter not reach the stage in life where they can no longer shoot an acceptable score only using one hand.  So then they either quit shooting BE and move onto something else or plain quit shooting.  Is that what the participants of BE shooting want?  You are NOT a real BE shooter unless you only use one hand?  I hope not because you are cutting your own throat if you think it should only be a one-handed sport.  The run and gun crowd is enjoying a fast growing and much more realistic sport while BE shooting is ever so slowly falling back and losing shooters due to out dated rules.  Kind of sad in a way because I foresee the day when people will ask what the heck was bullseye shooting?

Rick H.

I suggest participation awards also!

Use 2 hands and B-16s at 50 yards.

Getting older? Need to shoot with both hands? Our local league absolutely does not care. We have wheelchair shooters, two handed shooters, deaf shooters and half blind shooters. There are no classifications. There are however rules that cover every shooter. It is a handicap league and every shooter must establish an average with the current way they are shooting. Switch hands. Get a new average. I will be establishing a new average for sitting on my butt and shooting with one hand the next time we have a league match. The WVPL (Willamette Valley Pistol League) is over 70 years old and going strong. As the shooters grow older and weaker. We also get a new crop of young shooters almost every year from Oregon State University which fields a team. I will just have to work harder to keep my belly from touching the bench. Some rules you must still follow.

I would encourage ALL of you to keep moving as you get older, One said he's losing strength to shoot one handed, well light weight many reps, don't worry about heavy weights!@ light weight many reps, the exercises for recovery from knee or shoulder surgery are wonderful for us, My Dad would complain about not being able to raise his arms above his shoulders, those exercises for shoulder surgery are perfect, I'm happy to see the gentleman shooting from a chair but I would encourage everyone to keep walking. My father lived alone and he fell in love with his easy chair, after his wife died he did not move and that easy chair killed him! as soon as he got to weak to walk it wasn't 6 months till he died. it's like the show with the 600 pound people, The Doctor tells them not to worry about a marathon but get up and walk to the end of the driveway and then maybe are the block, but get up and ,move, I'm 66 still working heavy industrial work and too fat but I still force myself to walk the dog 2.5 miles once a week.