Viral Olympic Shooter

First topic message reminder :

https://www.npr.org/2024/08/01/nx-s1-5060078/turkey-shooter-olympics-glasses-gear-silver

This Olympic airgun shooter has gone viral.  Is the flip-down blinder really necessary, or helpful?  

He doesn't think so.

Especially with a red dot, parking the dot in the middle of the black is very instinctive.   I would love for my trigger squeeze to be relegated to muscle memory, but as I get older, what worked well in my youth no longer does the job.  I think I have muscle Alzheimer's...

One distinction I try to get across to the students I coach is not to think about firing the shot.  You want to concentrate on an action that will result in the shot being fired, i.e. smoothly increasing the pressure on the trigger, or keeping the trigger constantly moving to the rear for a roll trigger.  That slight mental difference helps to get the magical "surprise shot" and eliminates anticipation & forcing the shot off.

xmastershooter wrote:

This is a wide-ranging subject so I'll ask you one question to narrow it in: if a person has good visual acuity*, do you think it's reasonable to delegate the visual parts of the shot process to the subconscious and put the conscious focus on squeezing the trigger?

Holy smokes, this may be above my pay grade! I suspect most shooters with excellent vision may try to dress up the sight picture too much in that it would affect the trigger pull. This would include marksmen up to high masters. For myself at the range, I’m still pleasantly surprised when a shot is a 10 when my hold seems to be out of the 10 ring but the trigger pull was smooth and deliberate.

Good vision is still critical but we need to step back a little and let the mind and the trigger finger do its job. I guess I answered your question in layman’s terms.

let the...trigger finger do its job.

This is fascinating to me.

I have found that I shoot best when I am consciously driving the trigger. I believe that Brian Zins described it as "steering the dot with the trigger." Same goes for iron sights.

Thanks for the feedback, and thanks for sharing it with our Bullseye community, sir.

bruce martindale wrote:delegate the visual parts of the shot process to the subconscious and put the conscious focus on squeezing the trigger?


Some guy wrote a book talking about trigger focus….knowing is one thing Doing is another.

Is that the same guy that I watched bend over and look in his scope between shots 1 and 2 of a Timed Fire string at Camp Perry?

I haven't made it to that chapter of the book yet.

What was the movie???

Give'm the finger ....

As for JB and his 'advise' ...

Toss it in the bowl and punch the handle...

John Bickar wrote:

let the...trigger finger do its job.

This is fascinating to me.

I have found that I shoot best when I am consciously driving the trigger. I believe that Brian Zins described it as "steering the dot with the trigger." Same goes for iron sights.

Thanks for the feedback, and thanks for sharing it with our Bullseye community, sir.

This brings back memories when Brian Zins and Andy Moody came to Sunnyvale Rod & Gun Club in 2006 for their valuable BE clinic. I respect Brian's persona while at Camp Perry. His demeanor was, "I will win!" There would be no other outcome. He was driven and every time Brian attended Camp Perry, he won as the national champion. 

Of note that was valuable to me, Brian and Andy instructed us to fire the 1st sustained shot immediately. In particularly during RF, it should be within the 1st second after the target faces. Don't think. One would have all the time in the world to shoot the next 4 shots in a controlled manner. As a newer shooter once again, I didn't develop many bad habits yet, so I did what was instructed and was rewarded by holding the league record for the CF TF with 200-9x. My claim to fame was short lived as John Bickar relocated to California the next year and upped the bar and now the record sits at 200-17x.

Another pointer which some of the old timers may remember was Brian's famous quote, "I'm not smart enough to shoot a bad shot!" Forgive me if I'd botched that up. This is interpreted as don't think too much when one breaks a shot. We have extremely intelligent people in this forum such as engineers and alumni members from MIT but shooting requires being in a zone as John Bickar described.

An example I'd like to share was when I was invited to join a local indoor club. I didn't develop many bad habits yet so one day during SF .22 training at 50', I shot 8 consecutive 10's and then a voice came upon me. "Now I will clean this target". Well, I was smart enough to shoot a poor shot. The 9th shot was a 6. The extra thinking prevented a smooth continuous trigger pull and the attempt to get that perfect sight picture was detrimental. For the 10th shot, my thought was "To Hell with this B.S., just pull the trigger dummy!" The last shot was a 10.

I was invited to give a BE clinic to members of this club and we had a large turnout, all of which were not BE shooters. I taped that "96" SF target as an instructional tool. Also I printed out Ron Steinbrenner's notes on BE which provided reading material and this was a great help. When instructing a clinic, you quickly realize you may know a lot more than you thought. Even if its for a couple of friends, give it a try.

Another hint from Brian Zins was that he ran before a big match to get into the right mindset. I tried this out before our state match around 2006 and it must have worked. It was very windy that day at Camp Pendleton but with that morning jog and experience from shooting in the wind at Camp Perry, I managed to score tops in the CF match. This was nothing to brag about as a past national champion, Mario Lazoya, came off wrist surgery and our state best shooter had gun problems. Anyhoo, it felt good.

For those who would like to advance in their abilities, try to shoot as many matches as possible. One may then understand trigger control, conscious and subconscious levels of mindset. Don't wait for the right time to shoot these matches as time will creep up quickly and lost opportunities may never come back. When I advanced into master level, I wrote all the things that helped me along and offered this summary for those who asked. One thing I recalled that I wrote was that it was the mind which did the shooting along with the trigger finger. I don't recall mentioning vision.

As a big fan of Brian Zins, I would like to suggest his series of videos in the Shooting Sport USA website. There are about 12 videos on different topics relating to BE shooting. Good luck on moving to the next classification.

One other snippet I heard directly from Brian was that, as his legend grew, people would no longer talk to him or even ask a simple question during down time.  Often when he was between shooting like waiting for alibi strings to be shot, he’d sit in his lawn chair and try to engage other shooters in some banter but get no takers.  His point was there’s a perception that he was 100% “in the zone” when in actual fact he says that it’s impossible to be “in the zone” for much longer than to shoot 10 or 20 shots.

Wobbley wrote:One other snippet I heard directly from Brian was that, as his legend grew, people would no longer talk to him or even ask a simple question during down time.  Often when he was between shooting like waiting for alibi strings to be shot, he’d sit in his lawn chair and try to engage other shooters in some banter but get no takers.  His point was there’s a perception that he was 100% “in the zone” when in actual fact he says that it’s impossible to be “in the zone” for much longer than to shoot 10 or 20 shots.

This is a very good point. I talk about this in my clinics. It's not possible to maintain complete focus throughout even a 900, let alone a one-day 2700. Different shooters approach this differently: you'll see Jim Lenardson sitting there reading a book; quite a number of years ago, I recall watching Jason Meidinger wrestling and roughhousing with his fellow Marines in between strings while they were waiting for all of the Marksmen dawdlers to come back from the target line. Everyone approaches it differently.

Two phrases crop up often in my journal: "energy management," and "D.O.D. - Disciplined, Organized, and Determined." That means I'm going to be "on" when I need to be "on", and can let up when the targets are not facing me with a loaded pistol in my hand.

Sometimes it works for me, sometimes it doesn't, but it works a lot better when I'm D.O.D. than when I am not.

This is a negative attitude if you ask me.

waiting for all of the Marksmen dawdlers to come back from the target line.

Think positive.  Be positive.

I’ve seen both as well. JB as the intellect reading between targets with a sense of calm. Then there was Steve Reiter and Jim Henderson fooling around next to me at the Canton Regionals. When at the line, they were ready fo shoot.

Jack H wrote:This is a negative attitude if you ask me.

waiting for all of the Marksmen dawdlers to come back from the target line.

Think positive.  Be positive.

This is religion if you ask me.  Many people waste time and some take a long time to figure out the obvious.  If you are competing against people you have to understand people.

Jack H wrote:This is a negative attitude if you ask me.

waiting for all of the Marksmen dawdlers to come back from the target line.

Think positive.  Be positive.

You are correct, sir; I could have worded that better. Thank you for the gift of feedback.

…waiting for all the MK, SS, EX, MA, and HM dawdlers to come back from the target line.

Seriously, people. Write down the ~12-15 characters on your opponent’s scorecard and punch in six staples on your target. It doesn’t have to take 20 minutes.

Yeah. It's *HIS* score ... not mine.

Which is likely lower ... :-)

I have a different take on these slooooow scorers. From my experiences, they were never the more experienced and higher classification shooters. They were always the marksmen who examined their targets which looked like they used a shotgun. Then they critique the need for a sight adjustment of a click. At one time, I politely mentioned that there was no grouping to justify a sight adjustment. I was ignored. Respect goes both ways. 

I wake up at 5 am and drive 2 1/2 hours for the 2700 match. There were these 2 guys who had no regards for everyone else and they were oblivious to their consistent holdup of the match. It was so bad that I asked the match director to ask shooters to score and return promptly as to not to delay the match. The match director was ignored.

This arrogance escalated to a dangerous situation during one of our state matches when one of these slow scorers invited a friend to one of our most important matches of the year. This friend had no training on a bullseye match and no pistol safety training and he felt he was entitled to do as he pleased. After all, he was an attorney.

This idiot, for lack of a better word, waved his pistol to the adjacent shooter repeatedly and would not correct himself when asked to do so. JB would remember raising his own voice loudly to alert this guy not to handle his firearm when shooters were down range. Instead of apologizing to those shooting the match, he said that he was pissed at how he was treated. Tense words were exchanged and the range master did a good job to diffused the situation. This important match was ruined for some of the shooters who were looking forwards to shooting well.

The slooow guy who invited this obnoxious person was just as responsible for the incidence. So no, patience and understanding was not the answer. A marksman will never improve without listening to others and who have no regards for anyone else. Taking 5-10 minutes to score a target which typically take a minute or two becomes very annoying after 27 times especially when I must drive back home during the busier traffic in the evening.

john bickar wrote:

Seriously, people. Write down the ~12-15 characters on your opponent’s scorecard and punch in six staples on your target. It doesn’t have to take 20 minutes.

Six staples? I thought four was the way. 

A quick thought on scoring, once the shots are down range, it is what it is. Write down the shot values (score hard, but fair) of the target you are scoring neatly (this is critical), do the math to the best of your ability. Quickly make sure your target was scored properly, slap on any needed repairs, and head back to the line. 

Yes their are some of us who have mobility issues, struggles with math, ect. The match is about shooting, not spending 5 minutes arguing with the scorer about a shot being in.

In defense of the Marksmen, scoring their targets is a bit more work than scoring a Master level shooter's target.  With a Marksman, you have to examine, record and add up every shot.  Not to mention trying to sort out a 9 shot target; is there a double, or did they miss?  For a Master, you count the few shots that aren't X's, subtract a couple points for the 9's, and you are done.  

It doesn't help that many younger shooters also have no idea how to add anymore without a calculator.  They need to be taught about subtracting down, so they don't hold things up trying to add a bunch of 9's.

There's certainly no excuse for bringing a total newbie with no concept of gun safety to ANY match, much less a big one.

gwhite wrote:In defense of the Marksmen, scoring their targets is a bit more work than scoring a Master level shooter's target.  With a Marksman, you have to examine, record and add up every shot.  Not to mention trying to sort out a 9 shot target; is there a double, or did they miss?  For a Master, you count the few shots that aren't X's, subtract a couple points for the 9's, and you are done.  

It doesn't help that many younger shooters also have no idea how to add anymore without a calculator.  They need to be taught about subtracting down, so they don't hold things up trying to add a bunch of 9's.

There's certainly no excuse for bringing a total newbie with no concept of gun safety to ANY match, much less a big one.

I always offer to new shooters the following " If you need any help with scoring, please let me know I will help". I have no problem helping someone add up a score, understand how to score more challenging situations such as alibis, a cluster of shots, ect. Everyone started somewhere, no need to make the beginning of the ride rocky.

Oh man, I had successfully repressed that memory. One of the only times I've ever felt in danger at a Bullseye match.

This dude was handling a loaded firearm at the line while the rest of the shooters were downrange. I don't believe it was malicious; just very, extremely negligent. 

That situation was a different ballpark from slow scoring.

chiz1180 wrote:
Six staples? I thought four was the way. 

Six is the way, young Padawan.

1:00, 3:00, 5:00, 7:00, 9:00, 11:00.

Search your true feelings and you will discover that I am right.

john bickar wrote:

chiz1180 wrote:
Six staples? I thought four was the way. 

Six is the way, young Padawan.

1:00, 3:00, 5:00, 7:00, 9:00, 11:00.

Search your true feelings and you will discover that I am right.

With optional staples at 12 and 6 if you can't find a flat target at Perry...

Dave

I don't see much of a stir for a shooter who shoots in an academic position... until the age of 50, having the right eye as the predominant one, I never used glasses and I won in various specialties and once the Italian team championship PGC (30+30) with left hand in my pocket...

How to score…count 10 holes starting furthest out at 12 o'clock going inward. This tells you how many should be in the knot hole. Going the other way is worse than slow…it’s error prone. I had a HM trying to score a refire target from the center out and made a total mess of the card. Write them down low to high and right to left. All X’s on left of card.
Adding scores ? Nope, count up the lost points again from right ( big#) to left. Easy and fast

John Bickar wrote:
I think the relevant document is "Iron Sight Visual Perception Under The Open Sun," with special emphasis on "perception" and "under the open sun."

I consider this article to be the foundational research into this esoteric topic. I was happy to participate 15+ years ago when I had much younger eyes. I'd be interested to see a followup with some of the current top shooters.

I'd be happy to undertake this project. I would need some help with names and contact information of current elite shooters. Dave Lange was of great help with the original survey. Unfortunately, a couple of original shooters had passed and will be missed.

In defense of the Marksmen, scoring their targets is a bit more work than scoring a Master level shooter's target.  With a Marksman, you have to examine, record and add up every shot.  Not to mention trying to sort out a 9 shot target; is there a double, or did they miss?  For a Master, you count the few shots that aren't X's, subtract a couple points for the 9's, and you are done. 

Understood and well written. One last post on this subject and I'll shut up. JB used the term Marksmen Dawdlers and I used Slooow Scorers. The better term would have been Arrogant Scorer. It was not a math or entry problem to the scorecard. Although marksmen, these guys were not newbies.

One would take his time going to the target to score. They would appear to philosophized their targets and couldn't care about everyone else. When eventually done, they would slowly stroll back to the line, always being the last ones. To top it off, when approaching the bench to shoot the next target, one would hold everyone up by loading his magazines when just about everyone else would have done this already after finishing the previous course of fire. After 27 times during a 2700 match, this gets very old. Arrogant Scorer!