Hammerli 208s Short Stroke Trigger

by Orion 8/10/2024, 5:56 pm

Is there a way to avoid this - see pictures below. I know I am creating this issue. This happens typically in rapid fire.

Is there a trigger adjustment I can do to minimize this from happening? I was doing this with my Hammerli 208 and now with this Hammerli 208s.

Hammerli 208s Short Stroke Trigger B5b14010

Hammerli 208s Short Stroke Trigger 4177af11

Hammerli 208s Short Stroke Trigger 42e7b411

by gwhite 8/10/2024, 6:16 pm

It's highly unlikely to be a trigger issue. Before you spend a lot of time chasing phantoms, read this:

https://www.targettalk.org/download/file.php?id=27790

by DA/SA 8/10/2024, 7:21 pm

Between the 1911 issue and this one, I believe both could be re elated to grip. Perhaps you are relaxing your grip during RF.

by gwhite 8/10/2024, 7:29 pm

DA/SA wrote:Between the 1911 issue and this one, I believe both could be re elated to grip. Perhaps you are relaxing your grip during RF.

1911's are known for messing up if they don't have a firm grip to work against. I don't know about the Hammerli, but most target .22's aren't as fussy.

I'm 72, and if I shoot with a tight grip, I have really bad tremors. I just shoot .22's now, with a very light grip. Benellis, Pardinis, MatchGuns, High Standards & Model 41's all don't seem to mind.

I took a closer look at your photos, and you may be having problems from the cases hitting the rail. You might want to look at the ejector geometry, and see if you can raise the contact point a tiny amount to kick the cases sideways a bit more.

by Mike_Anderson 8/11/2024, 8:25 am

I solved that problem years and years ago by cutting the rail to be even with the breach face. Then you put the rings side by side on the front scope tube. Be sure to put some duct tape on the bottom of the scope body that hangs over the end so the ejecting cases don't mark up the scope.
Mike

by gwhite 8/11/2024, 9:04 am

Mike_Anderson wrote:I solved that problem years and years ago by cutting the rail to be even with the breach face. Then you put the rings side by side on the front scope tube. Be sure to put some duct tape on the bottom of the scope body that hangs over the end so the ejecting cases don't mark up the scope.
Mike

You may not need to be quite that drastic. Take a look at the underside of the rail. If that's your problem, there should be a collection of marks where the cases are hitting. You may be able to get away with just cutting a bevel near the outer edge in the rail to clear the cases. High Standard did this on their Victors for a while, and MatchGun also did this on some of their pistols:

Hammerli 208s Short Stroke Trigger Mg2_ri10

The OP said it mostly happens in rapid fire, which is a bit odd. That could indicate a grip issue from relaxing or tensing up during a string. If it tends to happen after the first shot, I'd still go with a dirty chamber. The added drag from having 4 rounds in the magazine might push it over the edge. Still, that should happen on other stages.

On MatchGun MG2's, they tend to trap brass after the last round if the extractor grip is too weak. Without a round in the carrier to help hold the case up, they droop and don't hit the ejector properly. If seen similar issues in Benellis, where the round in the magazine helps to support the 1st four fired cases, and then the last one will flop around & jam.

by DA/SA 8/11/2024, 10:52 am

Were you using the same scope amnd scope mount on the 208?

by mbmshooter 8/11/2024, 1:59 pm

Mike_Anderson wrote:I solved that problem years and years ago by cutting the rail to be even with the breach face. Then you put the rings side by side on the front scope tube. Be sure to put some duct tape on the bottom of the scope body that hangs over the end so the ejecting cases don't mark up the scope.
Mike

Mike,

I did the same thing with the 208s and Marvel mounts. In both cases it eliminated the issue of trapped brass.

Mike

by Orion 8/11/2024, 2:03 pm

mbmshooter wrote:
Mike_Anderson wrote:I solved that problem years and years ago by cutting the rail to be even with the breach face. Then you put the rings side by side on the front scope tube. Be sure to put some duct tape on the bottom of the scope body that hangs over the end so the ejecting cases don't mark up the scope.
Mike
Mike,

I did the same thing with the 208s and Marvel mounts. In both cases it eliminated the issue of trapped brass.

Mike

Ill take off the mount and see if the issue continues. Thanks

by Orion 8/12/2024, 12:45 pm

I took off the scope mount, which didn't have an impact on the result. I continue to think that I am not letting off the trigger after a shot is fired, not letting the trigger reset properly. Have any Hammerli 208, 215 owners found a bandaid for this issue?

by DA/SA 8/12/2024, 1:33 pm

I don't quite understand how trigger manipulation could cause that.

Besides, if somehow the trigger didn't reset, the trigger would be dead, and you wouldn't be able to fire the next shot without first racking the slide.

My 208s has never missed a beat and I shoot CCI SV.

by gwhite 8/12/2024, 3:00 pm

If it's firing, it's extremely unlikely to have anything to do with the trigger. You've got an extraction and/or ejection issue.

Besides making sure your chamber is clean, there are a couple test you can do to check your extractor. Step 1 is to make sure if you clip a fired case under the extractor that it has at least some sort of grip on the case. The cases shouldn't be loose enough to flop around hardly at all. You can also try chambering a loaded round (at the range). and then remove the magazine & open the slide slowly. The round shouldn't droop much when the bullet clears the chamber. I've seen pistols where the round will just fall out.

I don't know how tight a Hammerli should hang onto a case, but most .22's run over a pound when tested with a trigger pull gauge and a piece of fishing line:

Hammerli 208s Short Stroke Trigger Extrac10

You need to use a thin enough line that it fits easily under the extractor hook, and then pull until the case drops off the extractor. A Lyman digital pull gauge works really well for this. Take at least a half dozen measurements. If they vary a lot, that may be an indication that your extractor is dirty or needs oil.

If it's light, the spring may need replacing. Pardini tends to overstress their springs, and if you get much below a pound & a half, it's time to replace the spring.

Other Hammerli experts will need to chime in on how sharp the extractor needs to be. Most pistols work best if the extractor bites into the cases at least a little bit.

If the rib didn't interfere with things, then your ejector is probably OK, but it would hurt to check it over carefully.

by chopper 8/12/2024, 9:46 pm

gwhite wrote:If it's firing, it's extremely unlikely to have anything to do with the trigger. You've got an extraction and/or ejection issue.

I would check the ejector and make sure it is seated properly especially if you put in a new recoil spring. pull the recoil spring and slide the ejector out and clean out the complete channel and put it back together. May help, may not.
Stan

by Jack H 8/12/2024, 11:43 pm

Is the rim hitting the magazine lips before hitting the ejector?

by **Wobbley** 8/13/2024, 12:01 am

A lot of smart phones have cameras that can shoot video in slow motion. Search tge web on your phones particulars. That might help I’d the cause.

by Ed Hall 8/13/2024, 11:07 am

I'd look at the magazines as well:

- Remove the recoil spring.
- Insert an empty mag.
- Insert an empty case.
- Close the slide.
- Slowly retract the slide and watch to see if the case makes it to the ejector, or hits the magazine lip first.

However, without the overhanging scope mount, cases ejecting off the magazine rather than the ejector will normally clear the gun fine.

Another couple things to check, if the gun has lots of rounds through it, are two areas of the headspace:
- On the side opposite the ejector look to see if the metal flowed away from the headspace, letting the case slip out before hitting the ejector.
- At the top above the firing pin, see if the metal has closed the headspace somewhat. This would also prevent the extractor from gripping the case effectively due to the case being too low in the headspace.

by w1nr 8/15/2024, 4:36 pm

Most likely cause is a worn ejector and/or extractor.

by Tripod3 8/15/2024, 4:40 pm

I have had the same problem and a friend suggested I change ammo. I experimented with several types of ammo and found the problem would only occur with one of the types I was using.

by gwhite 8/15/2024, 5:05 pm

One of the (many) issues with .22 Long Rifle ammo is that a lot of details about the exact shape of the rim are left unspecified, and the dimensions that are given have pretty loose tolerances. As a result, some brands don't play well with some extractor geometries.

I have been tweaking the extractor on one of my MatchGun MG2's, and it works fine with most ammo, but it's not 100% reliable (yet) with Aguila Standard Velocity. My wife's MG2 shoots it fine, and my newer MG2 also works well with anything I've fed it.

I think the issue is the size of the radius between the case wall and the rim. It seems to be a little larger on Aguila than a lot of other ammo, and it may vary a bit more. I've got cases from SK Pistol Match and Norma TAC-22 collected (both of which extract & eject 100% reliably), and I will put them under a microscope & see if I can figure out what is going on.

by uscg1911 8/15/2024, 8:38 pm

I had something similar happening with a 208s and to a lesser degree a 208 international. The cause I found was that the spent case was making contact with the top of the magazine lips before hitting the ejector. That was popping the spent case out from under the extractor causing the jams. On most of my magazines I was able to bend the feed lips slightly to ensure the cases clear the magazine but on a couple it required a file, some of the magazines did not cause a problem in one gun but did in the other. Was easy to see the cause of the problem by putting a spent case in the chamber, empty magazine in place with the scope mount off the gun and pulling the slide back slowly while watching the feed lips and case.

by Orion 8/15/2024, 10:06 pm

uscg1911 wrote:I had something similar happening with a 208s and to a lesser degree a 208 international. The cause I found was that the spent case was making contact with the top of the magazine lips before hitting the ejector. That was popping the spent case out from under the extractor causing the jams. On most of my magazines I was able to bend the feed lips slightly to ensure the cases clear the magazine but on a couple it required a file, some of the magazines did not cause a problem in one gun but did in the other. Was easy to see the cause of the problem by putting a spent case in the chamber, empty magazine in place with the scope mount off the gun and pulling the slide back slowly while watching the feed lips and case.

Thanks, I’ll take a look. It happens with all of the magazines and one of them is brand new.

by Orion 8/15/2024, 10:08 pm

Tripod3 wrote:I have had the same problem and a friend suggested I change ammo. I experimented with several types of ammo and found the problem would only occur with one of the types I was using.

I’ve tried various ammo: blue box CCI SV, light blue box CCI SV, Eley Club, Aguila, and another that I can’t think of at the moment. All produce similar results.

by Orion 8/15/2024, 10:11 pm

Ed Hall wrote:I'd look at the magazines as well:

- Remove the recoil spring.
- Insert an empty mag.
- Insert an empty case.
- Close the slide.
- Slowly retract the slide and watch to see if the case makes it to the ejector, or hits the magazine lip first.

- On the side opposite the ejector look to see if the metal flowed away from the headspace, letting the case slip out before hitting the ejector.
- At the top above the firing pin, see if the metal has closed the headspace somewhat. This would also prevent the extractor from gripping the case effectively due to the case being too low in the headspace.

Thanks Ed, I’ll try these suggestions on Saturday and see how it goes.

by Orion 8/15/2024, 10:13 pm

One thing worth mentioning is that I bought this 208S from Phil Hemphill two months before he passed away. The pistol arrived in excellent condition. I would imagine he took very good care of this. This only started a few months after I started using it.

by bruce martindale 8/16/2024, 6:31 am

Lots of good advice here. Extractor has to hold the case until ejection. Grease or a burr at the breechface top at firing pin hole can be a problem. I scrape it out from below (slide is off ) with a sharp chisel or screwdriver.

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