Loading Question for the Brain Trust

My goal is to load the absolute softest possible, reasonably accurate ammunition possible.  I bruise like a banana and cut like tissue paper, so I prioritize soft ammo. 

I have reliability issues with the below setup and load.  

SARO
RRA heavy combo rib
Sig Romeo 5
19# MS, 10# RS

Zero 185gr LSWC
3.8gr Clays
WLP
0.922” to shoulder, 0.466-67” crimp

I had a near 50% ejection failure rate with a 12# recoil spring.  10# RS brought the failure rate down significantly, but I am still having some issues with
- empty cases returning to the chamber (slide not cycling completely)
- weak ejection issues like stovepipes
- failure to lock back on some of my mags

The extractor is in good shape and properly tensioned, and the gun with 12# RS was 100% reliable with a jacketed 185/4.2gr Clays load. Unfortunately, the jacketed loads bruised my hand over the course of a long day.   

I can add more powder or I can go to a swaged 200 LSWC.  I don’t want to go any lighter on the RS or MS.  For those of you that have developed powderpuff short line loads—what’s been your better compromise for reduced recoil?  Lighter bullet moving slightly faster, or a heavier and longer bullet over the same light powder load?

Edit to add: I am interested in sticking with Clays because of how well it meters for me and how clean it burns.  Interested in what the strategic consensus on reliable low-recoil loading is—light lead bullet with a more powder, or heavier lead bullet (with less case capacity) over less powder?

I too am particularly sensitive to recoil, my spine just can't tolerate more profound impacts. I've have very good luck with the following loads:

a really nice and accurate soft load for me is WST 4.2grains and a 185gn Hornady XTP projectile.

I've also found CFE-p 7.0 grains with a 200gn Hornady XTP projectile to be very nice as well, however it feels perhaps a touch more heavy in recoil than the aforementioned WST load.

I tend to prefer a very gentle taper crimp.

They both cycle my 1911 platform pistols well without any significant modifications in spring ratios though the triggers are very nicely done.

Many often advocate the tried and true Bullseye powder loads but i don't have a lot of experience with it.

Unless there are specific reasons for OAL and crimp, I suggest starting from a. increasing crimp to 0.464" as a first step, and b. decrease OAL to be ~0.918" / 1.234" as a second step.  Evaluate results after each step.  Most likely you will notice increase in recoil impulse, although not very significant.  Good chance you'll be able to go up to 11# on RS or even 12#.

"Gentle taper crimp" is fine with jacketed projectiles.  Not so much with swagged / cast ones.

My 2 cents.

AP

Yes on .464 crimp, probably 11-12# RS, and you should try 200 swaged same load also.

may i ask, is the purpose of the more constrictive crimp to increase pressure such that cycling effort will be improved?

brand-new wrote:may i ask, is the purpose of the more constrictive crimp to increase pressure such that cycling effort will be improved?

I believe more efficient powder burn.
Yes

I wouldn't obsess about the crimp or the length f the case. Cut one coil off the 12# spring and see what that does.

Look at the firing pin stop. A square stop pushes low on the hammer, and keeps the gun shut. a rounded one pushes higher up and opens easier.

Bruce, this RO has a standard rounded stop. I think the big issue is the slide has almost 3/4 of a pound worth of steel rib and optic on it.

I’ve loaded test batches of 4.0 Clays under the 185s and 3.8 and 4.0 Clays under the 200s. All at .920 shoulder and 0.465 crimp.

The heavy rib will require more powder and a heavier spring. Using a light weight, aluminum or smaller mount will help the gun cycle with lighter loads. Switching to a frame mount will help even more.

Recoil is a funny thing. Using a slide mount, light bullet and fast powder the recoil has less total energy but is more of a quick smack. Using a heavier bullet, heavier scope mount and slower powder will produce recoil with more total energy, but more of a slow shove. It really comes down to a personal preference.

This is my subjective opinion on a couple of variables for you

  My go to long line load was 3.9 clays under a 200 gr lcwc.  With my clays running low and no more to be had, I switched to 3.85 of VVN310 with the same bullet, .471 crimp and Starline brass.  The recoil impulse is noticeably less using VVN310.
  For the heck of it I’ll be running out of bullseye powder next year so I loaded up of the same VVN310 under some 185 gr WCBN using my normal short line load of 4 gr.  (Same crimp and same Starline brass) and have the same impression on recoil. 

It might just be me but I think trying some N310 might give you some good results.  

BTW you might even be able to use less powder on that 185 grain bullet.  My old wadgun and my ball gun will function with 3.7 BE but this new gun of mine needs more umph so that’s why I use 4 grains currently. 

Good luck.
John

Just tested 3.8/200 versus 4.0/185.

Both ran the pistol fine. More powder, light bullet was lower recoil. No initial “smack,” just a push as the gun cycled. Ejection was similar—cases from the 185s would land a foot to my right, cases from the 200s would fly 6-8 feet. However, the 185s were not accurate enough.

Uncalled fliers (dot never left the black through the shot process, but an 8 would show on target) were confirmed by sandbag testing (3” groups at 25). 200 LSWC was ragged-hole at 25 yards.

Will be loading up more of the 200s and upping the recoil spring weight. I imagine an 11 or 12 will tone that initial snap sensation down a small amount. A new square-bottom FPS might be helpful as well.

JRV wrote:Just tested 3.8/200 versus 4.0/185.  

Both ran the pistol fine.  More powder, light bullet was lower recoil.  No initial “smack,” just a push as the gun cycled.  Ejection was similar—cases from the 185s would land a foot to my right, cases from the 200s would fly 6-8 feet.  However, the 185s were not accurate enough.  

Uncalled fliers (dot never left the black through the shot process, but an 8 would show on target) were confirmed by sandbag testing (3” groups at 25).  200 LSWC was ragged-hole at 25 yards.  

Will be loading up more of the 200s and upping the recoil spring weight.  I imagine an 11 or 12 will tone that initial snap sensation down a small amount.  A new square-bottom FPS might be helpful as well.

Some folks find that their guns shoot the Zero 185 gr. LSWCHP better than the 185 gr. LSWC bullets. Nevertheless what works for some may not work for all.

BE Mike wrote:Some folks find that their guns shoot the Zero 185 gr. LSWCHP better than the 185 gr. LSWC bullets. Nevertheless what works for some may not work for all.

I’ve heard the same based on the increased bearing surface and case capacity.  The non-HP 185s have a long nose and maybe 1/4-1/3 less bearing surface than the 200s, so a different twist rate or higher velocity might be necessary for those.  

They really did not shoot well at all in the Springfield barrel with either powder charge.

I loaded another 40 rounds at 3.8, 30 rounds at 3.6, and 30 rounds at 3.5.  

I kept the pistol dirty from the last test and upped the RS from 10# to 11#.  I did not add any more oil. 

I shot the 40 3.8s first to make sure the gun was running while dirty with the 11#.  No issues, still a tiny bit snappy.  Alternated between 3.6 and 3.5 loads for strings over the next 60 rounds.  

The 3.5s ran but would not lock back on the last round.  The 3.6s were almost as soft as the 3.5s, but they ejected and locked back even when the slide was cycling a little gummy.  Both loads were equally accurate at 25 off a wrist rest. 

Still not as soft as the 185s, but miles softer than the jacketed bullets.

JRV, others have said but i want to reinforce, when running very light loads little things can become big things, rounding and polishing the firing pin stop (you can also get a scalloped hammer) and a heavy crimp are very important for reliable cycling. I have been able to reliably shoot down to 2.7gr Be/180 swc this way. You need to use the heaviest recoil spring that will reliably lock the slide back, or accuracy will suffer. Another thing you can look at is polishing the breech face, shaping the extractor claw, every little thing helps when you are running light loads.

perhaps its just an issue of GUN.. alloy frame usage?

my 6" taurus 357 has more recoil, felt recoil, when using alliant 1995 book data for 38 special wadcutters then my colt competition in 45acp using factory 230 hardball or winchester 185 silvertip..

to be honest i dont FEEL anything with the colt and that ammunition right now. perhaps the dual recoil spring works

Not alloy framed. It’s a Springfield Range Officer that’s been built out as a wadgun.

Powder burn rate seems to have some effect correlated to case volumes. Clays is fluffy and burns fast, but it’s consistently poor under the 185 SWC bullets. Runs like a champ and shoots a single oblong hole with the 200s.

W231 makes the 185s group well and run more consistently than Clays.

JRV wrote:Not alloy framed.  It’s a Springfield Range Officer that’s been built out as a wadgun.  

Powder burn rate seems to have some effect correlated to case volumes.  Clays is fluffy and burns fast, but it’s consistently poor under the 185 SWC bullets.  Runs like a champ and shoots a single oblong hole with the 200s.  

W231 makes the 185s group well and run more consistently than Clays.  

Perhaps you need heavier grips? sounds like the issue is just slide speed or gun weight. 

Many years ago I ran across a thread in a different forum about a guy who had a 32-20 that had to much recoil for him. His friend gave him a custom pair of grips, made out of marble. turned recoil into what the shooter called "32 short lrn to 32 long wadcutters"

The slide has an extra 11+ ounces of stuff on it, and it’s not lightened internally. Gripping is not the problem. The loads that aren’t running are doing the “hand-cycled round doesn’t kick the case all the way to the ejector, then the next four fall gently about a foot away” routine. Classic “needs more gas” symptoms.

The solution is going to end up being some soft load of W231 (probably 5.2gr) under the 185s and some soft load of Clays (probably 3.6gr) under the 200s. Test them both at 50 to see if the 200s group better. If yes, mark them for LL use. If not, keep them as reserve ammo for extra cold days when the W231 might be a bit too sluggish.

I shoot a Springfield with similar setup. I run the 200gr coated LSWCs over 3.6BE. It's quite accurate from 50 yards to 50 feet and recoil is...ok.

I had 100 each of 3.6 Clays/200 and 5.2 W231/185 loaded this past weekend. No malfunctions of any kind across the 200 rounds. I did drop back to a 10# recoil spring, I did not oil the gun over the course of the day to test the effects of dirtiness. I’ll probably stay with the 10–once the gun got very dirty, the last brass of every mag was barely trickling out to starboard. But, nothing that would have induced an alibi.

The W231 load was flashier and louder but only slightly, and the impulse in hand was more gentle. I had an RSO swap my mags around to try and make the test blind, but it was immediately apparent when I was shooting 200s.

My TF scores were the same but my RF scores were consistently better with the 185s.

Try checking 15 or 20 rounds for consistent velocities.  I found with N310 and a Nosler 185 gr that lighter loads have much greater extreme spreads.  The slow rounds wouldn't cycle well.  I got stovepipes and empty fired cases going back into the chamber.  Bumping up the load by 0.2 gr tightened velocity extreme spread and fixed the problem with functioning.

JRV wrote: I am interested in sticking with Clays because of how well it meters for me and how clean it burns.  

Which powder measure are you using?

DA/SA wrote:

JRV wrote: I am interested in sticking with Clays because of how well it meters for me and how clean it burns.  

Which powder measure are you using?

Dillon PM on my 550 and a RCBS Uniflow with my turret setup.  Both do great with Clays so long as I’m throwing 3+ grains.