open sights

First topic message reminder :

I am trying to get into bullseye and want try to shoot at club tournament. I have my old fathers's model 41, a Model 14 6" and bought 45 Range Officer...all open sights. Is it pointless to try to shoot without aimpoints on the 41 and 45. Does anyone still do it?

desben wrote:

jbking wrote:Is it pointless to try to shoot without aimpoints on the 41 and 45. Does anyone still do it?

I think you had your answer, but I would like to add that all ISSF (international bullseye) shooting is done with open sights. No red-dots are allowed at the olympics.

Where I'm at in Ontario, Canada, nobody uses a red dot. The local leagues and matches tend to follow ISSF rules as opposed to NRA. Some shooters, young or old, still produce outstanding groups. I believe most of Europe shoots without red dots also.

This is the shame of NRA bullseye today. New shooters see almost everybody with dots and because they want to move up they think they have to add dots,basically because everybody else is doing it. As I said in another post this is one small reason why there is nobody shooting for Distinguished points, they don't move up through the ranks using a basic hardball pistol. I started around guys that said don't use dots until you break 2600, you almost never hear that anymore, therefore I didn't care what others were using. I just got better using iron sights.

All pistol manufacturers assume we all have the same length arms, shoot square to the target, and are right handed, and use both hands now.

In my opinion the red dot is the best training aid. A new shooter will learn faster with the Red Dot rather that with Iron sights. When I started shooting I did well with irons sights on a revolver shooting the Police L matches such as the Walt Wise in Harrisburg PA. However when I started shooting NRA Bulls eye I was down in the Marksman class. Soon the Red Dot became available, the Aimpoint was used by the winner of the National Match. I purchased one and went from Marksman to Master in one year! Soon my youngest son Adam started shooting, he did not like Iron Sights so I installed Ultra Dots on is guns. He was 10 years old when he shot at Camp Perry and still holds the Junior Record 2634 if my memory is correct! However as he got older he wanted to get distinguished so I built him a Ball gun and soon he had points. Shooting that good at Perry got him noticed by the military, he decided to go into the Army AMU. The following year he returned to Perry as a member of the Army team and was the "New" and also the high shooter on the team. He also won the NTI that year. Simply put the Red Dot was a great training aide that allowed him to learn yet when he needed to use the iron sights the training paid off. He was 19 when he won the NTI! So in my opinion the Red Dot will help you learn the fundamental much quicker than using the irons sights. I know it helped me and Adam, we both stated we could see many problems beginning before the gun fired and correct the error and shoot a good shot! BTW Adam has shot 2650 with left and right hands.

Froneck, could you please elaborate on how a dot helps more than iron? Is it that small movements are more easily noticed than on iron sights, therefore easier to detect problems in grip or triggering? Would you recommend that someone shooting matches with iron practice with a dot once in a while?

I got to say with all the things im worried about for my upcoming first match, the fact that im shooting irons is way down the list.   If your guns have irons, and that's what your used to, shoot it. If you like it, and want to progress, at that time you decide if you want to stick with irons, or go to a dot. No match time is pointless. You might not do as well as others, but you don't know till you do it. Jump in, get the experience, and weigh the pros, and cons of the different sight setups.

Well match time is important, to many worry about there first match and doing well. They are so worried that they will make a fool of themselves and shoot bad. No one cares! If you properly shoot, follow the rules and are safe no one cares what your score is except you. They all look at the top of the list not the bottom! I've shot Perry for 33 years straight, seen hot shooters come there after doing really well at their club matches thinking they are going to do the same at Perry, too often they brag about how well they will do. Usually they shoot really bad and I never see them again! So get the match experience!
 As to practice with Red Dot, yes I feel the Red Dot is a great training aide. Errors in shooting are hard to detect with iron sights but with the red dot you can see the dot move as the shot is being fired sometimes with enough time to correct the condition. Adam shoots most of the time with the Red Dot, only uses iron sights when it's required. His wife being an international shooter went to an Air Pistol match so Adam went along. While there the other shooters talked him into shooting the match and loaned him an air pistol, he won the match! For those that don't know International Shooting is all iron sights. I shot in a pistol league against other clubs. Revolvers with iron sights at police "L" targets 25yards, 300 National match type course. We shot a 20 match season. We also had any sight match but it was the iron sight score that counted. I used the red dot on one of my 2 revolvers to practice for the iron sight match, my season 20 match average was 299.7. I still have the trophy plaque. The red Dot allows you to see the results of your shot up to the point of recoil, and often after recoil too. This will help you see that results of making a good shot in real time and create the AH HA moment.

Errors in shooting are easy to detect with irons. You'll notice hits in the white.

When you get unexplained hits in the white, you pay closer attention. 

With a dot, you notice more movement. For most shooters, that's a bad thing. 

Losing focus on the front sight has a high penalty. Losing intense focus on the dot (or target) doesn't seem to be as punishing on the score sheet. 

I believe the top score at Perry still belongs to irons. The dot can be a tool, but don't use a hammer when you need a wrench. 

Adam could probably shoot 2650 holding the gun upside down.

I am not a highly practiced shooter so much any more.  Age, health, work, family, club duties, etc. all have an influence on how much I can work at bullseye.  Some of my best targets ever have been with irons.  I shot my first match at the age of 20 in 1969.  Then on, it was all irons with High Standard 106, NM Gold Cup, and Colt OMM 38.  All irons.  I did not have a dot until the late 90s.  I still like shooting irons better but it takes more to find the ideal sight picture.  Vision, lens, lighting on the target and on the sights, notch width and depth all are needed factors to get a perfect sight picture with irons.  It is easier to get to an ideal sight picture with a dot.

I do not totally agree with the dot being the better training aid than irons.  Irons tell me more about my alignment with my eye.  Dots give more emphasis on placement on the target.  I see those as two different but important things.  I may be old school but I think alignment to the eye is more important.

Lot of things are important! But learning to get that trigger squeezed without movement is most important. International shooting is all iron sights but all the top shooters at Perry are shooting Red Dot. Both work well but I have found that the Red Dot will get a new shooter shooting better and move up the classification ladder faster than with using iron sights. Talking with Adam who is now the coach of the Army Pistol team he also feel the same. Under him the Army shooters took 1, 2 and 3 at Perry this year with the same score!

Ask Adam to make another AMU training video like "Mind Over Matter", or have clinics in Georgia and Alabama.

Unfortunately that last time I talked to him (few days ago) he said the Army training has be discontinued for now. Thanks to Ohbummer I guess. I'm wondering when it will be discontinued at Camp Perry. 60 minutes did a good job of screwing it up a few years ago so I refused to watch it.

You'll be a better shooter for shooting irons...it forces you to concentrate on trigger control instead of developing a habit of jerking the trigger when the dot is in the middle of the black.  Besides, there's a metallic sight division now.

I don't agree! Nor will it make you a better shooter! As I pointed out Adam used only red dot sights as a Junior, He shot Perry at the age of 10 He went into the Army at age 18 after Camp Perry and returned the following year as a member of the Army team. He was high shooter on the Ball team that won the team match that year and he won the NTI.(BTW the NTI ball match is shot with iron sights)The Junior record he shot 2634 still hasn't been beaten. His right hand started bothering him so he switched and started shooting left handed, now he shoots with either hand being a 2650 shooter with both and has won the NTI a second time with his left hand I think. Being at an Air Pistol match with his wife and was talked into shooting by the other competitors we won the match with a borrowed pistol again with iron sights!  Can't get much better than that!
 To continue is pointless just like arguing which is better Ford or Chevy! Simply put I feel the red dot is a great training aide, Adam also agrees! Anyone jerking a shot into the bull will never be any good and remain a Marksman forever! Nuff Said!

Anderson shot a 2680 with iron sights...anybody ever done it with a dot?
  Sight alignment and sight picture are only important when the gun goes bang.  Trigger control is everything.  Getting away from the dot and going back to irons to focus on my trigger control as opposed to sight picture and THEN going back to the dot got me rolling again (not bad practice for EIC either).  I'm not saying do it for years, but take a couple of weeks or some practice time and work on it....it can be a valuable exercise.  I shoot a dot better than irons, but I shot the dot better after switching it up for a month or so. Got me from 250's to mid 270's. I still shoot a k-frame with irons single and double action as part of practice.  It doesn't have to be all of one or all of the other, it just has to work for you.  That's what worked for me.  Anybody jerking a shot into the bull would be a master...anybody jerking a shot out of the bull would be a marksman.

Peoples perspective on debate issues often make a difference.  In this case the already good shooter will see things not the way a learning shooter does.  The same words can be interpreted differently due to experience level.  And some people have a shorter fuse than others.  Let the interpretations continue.

No fuse here. Anderson shot 2680 one time with iron sights when there was no Red Dot to be had. I enjoyed talking to him at Perry, he, I, Adam and a few other old timers went to dinner together at Perry.
 Furthermore I have been going to Perry for the last 33 consecutive years and don't recall anyone that won using iron sights.
 If it works for you, great keep it up but I don't see a classification listed for you. I too shoot iron sights and got my Distinguish badge back in the 80's when ball was issued and didn't know what ammunition was being issued, white box match or some mixed lot brown box.
 Anyone that expects to become a Master by jerking the trigger will be a marksman for life. Jerking a 10 or X will lead to a false Ah Ha and the shooter will never be any good! Yes I have jerked a few 10's and X's as time ran out. I shot knowing a skidder 6 is better than a 0 because the bullet is in my gun box. But I have skid just about everything else too! Over the years I found that a fast squeeze is far better than a quick jerk as the target is turning so my skidders averaged 8 or better.
 As I said before seeing what went wrong is the best teacher, jerk a shot and that dot streaks across the target. With the Red Dot I find is easier to call my shots and see errors as they develop that made me move up in classification faster. There was no High Master back then.
 To often at clubs I belonged to I seen the worst shooter give the new shooter advice. The bad shooter seems to think he knows how to do everything and is willing to jump in and tell a new shooter what to do! The top shooters remain quiet and don't get involved until asked and very rarely will offer advise when not requested. I've often told new shooter when hearing bad advise given to get advise from a shooter that shot in the 290's National Match Course and is not happy with his score than a guy that just broke 200 and is elated because it's his all time high! Often I refer to Adam, not because he is my son but because it's is his job to know shooting and does it 5 days a week or more more every week of the year! At one time  I was his teacher, now he is mine!

I have talked to John Zurek and Brian Zins personally about Hershel Andersons record.  Both men agree that a red dot will improve your X-count over iron sights.  They both have shot 2679 with more X's than Anderson did.  My understanding is that Brian has shot a 2680 but it was either a lower x-count or not a registered match.  Zurek told me at Canton that he shot a match at the same range where Zins shot the 2680 and he told me the targets turned the slowest he had ever seen.

I have talked to Brian a few times, this year I squeezed the trigger on his 45. Long roll. I'm sure it will not be long before the 2680 record is broken.
 One problem I see with the Red Dots micros is not any that have quality. I purchased 2 Bushnell micros the trophy. They are made in China and the mount don't fit the Weaver/Picatinniy base well! I have 2 others that look almost identical to the Bushnell and fit the same! I machined a base to fit them for my FWB AW93 but best I can get off sand bags is 1" at 25 yards and almost 3" at 50. Looking at others they all seem to be the same. SIG and Ultra Dot are similar but the bottom has been machined and a base screwed on but they don't fit right either. Adam tells me they are having problems with the Aimpoint micros and will be changing them next year.
 I am thinking of making a mount to accept the full size Red Dot for my AW

I don't see how not shooting in the match because he doesn't have a dot will make him a better shooter.  If he decides not to shoot the match simply because he doesn't have a dot, it's a shame.  Any chance to shoot in a match will potentially make him better, if nothing else simply by gaining match experience.  Shooting Irons will make you a better shooter than watching tv, or reading about someone winning a championship.  By all means, shoot the irons if you don't have a dot.  Once you get to a certain level, I agree seeing what went wrong can be a good teacher, but when you're just starting, some shooters need to see what right is so they know what to try to do again- develop some muscle memory.  If my choices are stay home or shoot irons, bye honey, I'm going to the range.  The only way to find out what works for you is to try it.  If you put a gun in a ransom rest it isn't going to shoot tighter groups with a red dot on it than it will with irons.  Figuring out how to be a better ransom rest is the name of the game.  Whatever works for you.

I agree! By all means if you don't have a Red Dot shoot Iron! Better than not shooting at all! I don't care how much you read it will never make you a better shooter! Too many of them books are written by someone that never fired a shot or when they did the safest place to be is in front of the target!
 I never suggested that if someone didn't have a Red Dot that they do not shoot either practice or a match. Shooting both with iron is better than not shooting at all. Many former record holders like Anderson didn't have a Red Dot to use, that didn't prevent them from becoming a champion. Also shooting until you are knee deep in brass will not make you a good shooter. Meaningful Practice will make you a good shooter!

Agreed!  Wasn't it Vince Lombardi that said " Practice doesn't make perfect....Perfect practice makes perfect."  Shoot quality shots with whatever you have to work with a lot.  A quantity of quality will have great results.  A quantity of mediocrity will have mediocre results.  Don't worry about beating everybody else for awhile... just try to beat what you did last time, this time...the scores will come.