Electronic Targets At Perry

First topic message reminder :

I shot them. Very poor sales pitch. target was not to scale for Bullseye
did not like you can not see your hits at the short line.
What do you all think of them  

on the bullseye email list Dennis has confirmed that funding for the electronic targets was not there so it was not going to happen, he also stated that he has spent 20k each for the last two years repairing the old system and he would do his best to do it again this season.

What bullseye email list is this?? How do we get on the list?

$40 K in two  years... Really..??

BS! $40k would go a long way to fabricate new system; and it would be apparent from firing line. That's enough money for digital timers as well. Somebody screwed him over for that kind of money.

As a long time Purchasing Manager who's department was responsible for plant maintenance and a budget of $300MM I don't think this is out of line.

300 firing points, inspected, work plans developed, work performed and tested.  That's less than $70 each not much money.  Especially if you have to use base approved contractors and can't bid out the work.

- Dave

LakeCraft Welding is located down the highway from Perry and has handled a lot more complicated projects than the pistol setup. I don't speak for them but w/ their proximity they would have most of a year for fabrication. They would likely set it up and could easily have a man there for the initial season. Same for observing operation the season before.

Couldn't the drive system (motors &mounts) be done 1 yr, the linkake to the targets the next if $$ are a problem. If they have spending $20k a yr something should already be done!!

But then if I was a beuracrat this would likely look a lot more complicated.

Ron Habegger

Just curious does the NRA have a long term agreement with Camp Perry to hold the national shoots there? 

If so, then maybe a fund could be set up and competitors charged a $50 maintenance fee every year and maybe NRA members could designate money to a Camp Perry renovation fund with their annual dues.

Right now the facilities don't measure up with what I've seen at local clubs here in PA.

$20,000 annually is not much to maintain an aging target system. 

If there is no long term agreement (written) to hold the shoots there from the base itself, I think that is problematic for getting folks to invest.  Maybe that's why the NRA holds back?????

Does anyone know the answer to these questions?

The nationals are already expensive for what they are. I think adding an additional $50 would do nothing more than lower participation. With all of the emails I get from the NRA, I would be much more comfortable with a fundraising initiative to fix things there.

jmdavis wrote:The nationals are already expensive for what they are. I think adding an additional $50 would do nothing more than lower participation. With all of the emails I get from the NRA, I would be much more comfortable with a fundraising initiative to fix things there.

+1 If the NRA asked for a $1 from each member even if only 1 out of 100 donated they would raise $50K. How about $2 Perry surcharge on ALL NRA sanctioned matches, then at least the burden is put on the competitors of the sport.

- Dave

Majority of BE shooters don't shoot at Perry. The surcharge would be unfair to them. As it is the payback from shooting matches is negligible and most shooters I talk to think the money the NRA gets is too much.

Jon

Jon Eulette wrote:Majority of BE shooters don't shoot at Perry. The surcharge would be unfair to them. As it is the payback from shooting matches is negligible and most shooters I talk to think the money the NRA gets is too much.

Jon

Jon I agree but its it more fair to take the money out of the NRA general operating budget?
If we expect the Perry competitors to foot the bill that's going to kill Perry long before eTargets would.

Instead of a surcharge add a checkbox to the entry and request a donation, but use the matches to focus the fund raising. If local competitors aren't willing to help keep the National match alive I'd be disappointed.

- Dave

Maybe the ticket would be the "Round Up" program through Midway and Brownells allowing the donation to be specified for political action or support of shooting venues.

I thought the NRA was siphoning of only about $2.00 per shooter for Approved and Registered matches???

Honestly, $5 a head would be more in line with the $2 I remember being assessed in the early 1980s, accounting for inflation that is NOT close to the Carter years.

In a world where people drop $75 to play a round of golf, I really think we need to get a sense of proportion, without going all the way down THAT overpriced path.

I really don't know--what IS the NRA getting per shooter from Approved & Registered matches?? In HP Rifle, I remember that as being only part of the difference between match fees for a state championship and the Leg Match the next day.

But yeah, I doubt that more than 1 out of 30 current NRA members has ANY IDEA how little support NRA HQ gives to competitions. They spend a lot of moolah on staff to keep the stats and publish the rulebooks and all that, but they don't even acknowledge the competitions functions in any meaningful way in their own publications. It's time to PUBLICLY honor the competitions tradition and beg for donations for that like everyone else fund-raises these days.

Betcha maybe 1 out of 10 who donate to "Hunt of a Lifetime" just might donate to competitions either in addition or instead. Maybe up to 1 in 5 if dedicated to the long-neglected Junior programs. But no one really has that choice if they don't know the need even exists.

And what's wrong with electronic scoring on turning targets?  Sure seems to me that some little RF system with a 1:4 ratio of motorized master units turning 4 slave units could easily be done cheaper if it's just turning an aiming point over the shot sensors. Heck, you could have the "lights" system turn on a white field and black dot projected on cheap cheese cloth screens in the dark above the shot sensors for very little additional cost.

they get more than 2.00, when I ran matches 8 years ago it was 4.00 per shooter

NRA announced signing a long term agreement w/ OH National Guard for the matches @ Perry a few yrs ago. One complication w/ the target system is the need for quick & easy setup & removal + storage for the system. Once broken down & stored it's forgotten until setup time rolls around again. The 2 or 3 people w/ hands on go a thousand miles or whatever to home. Those who are permanent w/ that experience are probably one, D. Willing, and he's not hands on. He's subjected/involved in all the internal politics @ NRA. There are at least several good, logical ideas voiced here but they are "NIH". Not invented here, meaning staff etc.
NRA has searched for another venue but finding, range capacity, central location, and lodging, in combination have been a problem.  Perhaps  electronics would reduce range capacity enough to split pistol off as smallbore has?

Ron Habegger

Approved matches are currently $4.50 and Registered are $5.25, per information listed on this page.

But, as a comparison to golf, I travel at least three hours (in each direction) for all "local" matches, other than the one I help run.  When you factor in the entry fees, ammo, gas (even, car-pooling, when available), breakfast, lunch and dinner (I'm gone that long), it can (and, often does) top $100.00.

Ed Hall wrote:Approved matches are currently $4.50 and Registered are $5.25, per information listed on this page.

But, as a comparison to golf, I travel at least three hours (in each direction) for all "local" matches, other than the one I help run.  When you factor in the entry fees, ammo, gas (even, car-pooling, when available), breakfast, lunch and dinner (I'm gone that long), it can (and, often does) top $100.00.

This is what I add it up to also.    

The cheapest match I shoot is a 220 mile round trip to Denver.    25 dollar entry fee.  25 bucks worth of gasoline, 20 dollars for lunch and dinner.   And 35 dollars worth of reloaded ammo.   
      Sometimes I get by a little cheaper with NRA points, and car pooling, but not much.  

What is hurting Perry participation is the travel costs, lodging costs, entry fees, ammo, and the all important time off for those people who are still young enough not to be retired. 

Once you subtract out the hundreds of military shooters,who used to have all their expenses picked up, but don't any more, is civilian participation at Perry really suffering that much, all things considered?

There are a lot of sports in this country who would be thrilled to get 700 people at their national competition.

I'm in that 30-40 demographic and I agree that it is tough to justify a full week of vacation days for something without my family. I know there are things for them to do in the area, but they have stuff going on at home too.  If I could go to Perry and do SAFS one day, shoot a 2700 the next day day, and EIC and other matches the third day I would have gone this year.  But seeing that I wanted to go to SAFS, I would have needed to show up Sunday and then stay until at least Saturday (with nothing to do on Tuesday because I don't shoot revolvers).  I just can't justify that many days.  I ended up skipping this year. 

I know I'm not alone.  If it took fewer days, then you might get some "younger" guys.  They are out there.  If you want people in their 20's, you probably won't get them.  When I started working after college I got 10 days of vacation.  It is tough choose to use 5 of them for something away from your family.

Once again, I really don't want to offend anybody, but here goes.  And this is not directed to any specific person, just general comments from an opinionated old dude. You opinions may vary, I'll probably listen to them politely, but will be more receptive if you run a bullseye match. (just kidding, I'm still an opinionated old dude and even that probably won't help).  Laugh a little and don't be too serious, this is just discussion, and opinions.  Jump in as needed.  

Its the National Pistol Match and the NRA National Pistol Championship.  It ain't a day at Motel 6 and waiting on the next drink delivery poolside.  It is a place where the shooting is hard and the competition is even harder (mostly because of all the stuff going on in our minds).  In any event, most national level events in any sport take place over a number of days, or through several previous days to competition to get there.

I appreciate that some people want to go for just the experience, but that is the experience.  Shooting in the open, over several days, first shot for score, wind, rain or blistering heat is the experience.  

It ain't supposed to be the local 900 that gets done in time for lunch or the match that you don't show up at because there is a chance of rain, or leave early because its a little cold or you had a couple of alibis.

If the entire week is too long, I know of many shooters that have just done SAFS one year and the CMP matches the next and the NRA matches the year after that.  I believe they got the experience they wanted without changing the nature of the championship just to suit their needs.  

The way you get more people to the national is to have more local matches were some people will sometime get the notion they can dedicate themselves to competing at a higher level.  Some of those shooters may sometimes get a goal in their mind and then train, compete, learn and strive to get to that goal.  The rest of the shooters will want to be done by lunch and won't show up when it rains.  But they are still shooters too.  But they are not looking for the same thing.   

If you really want it, you will find a way to do it.   If you don't really want it, any excuse will do.

Cecil

I don't have Cecil's experience, skills or knowledge but he did say "jump in", so here goes. I've never been to Camp Perry but sounds to me like Cecil makes a lot of sense. Especially the part where he says "the way you get more people to the national is to have more local matches".

Seems likely that one of the ways to have more local matches is to welcome and encourage all new shooters, and that means even if they don't have a clue where Camp Perry is or what they do there. If they have an opinion about e-targets at Camp Perry they're probably already shooting Bullseye, so if you want new shooters you need to look elsewhere.

What I'm getting at - throughout this thread there is a recurring theme that electronic targets at Camp Perry is somehow going to help or hurt growing Bullseye as a sport. Those new shooters that Bullseye needs probably couldn't care less what kind of targets they use at nationals. Get the new shooters involved and a small percentage may someday end up at nationals, but Bullseye isn't going to grow based on what happens at the national championship - it grows or dies based on what happens at the local clubs.

I know a lot of the participants on this forum have a strong interest in nationals, and e-targets are going to generate a lot of opinions on this forum (and rightfully so). I'm just not seeing the connection between e-targets and the growth or decline of Bullseye as a sport.

I freely admit I'm a noob so feel free to educate me, or throw rocks, or ....

Clay

What I'm getting at - throughout this thread there is a recurring theme that electronic targets at Camp Perry is somehow going to help or hurt growing Bullseye as a sport. Those new shooters that Bullseye needs probably couldn't care less what kind of targets they use at nationals. Get the new shooters involved and a small percentage may someday end up at nationals, but Bullseye isn't going to grow based on what happens at the national championship - it grows or dies based on what happens at the local clubs.

I know a lot of the participants on this forum have a strong interest in nationals, and e-targets are going to generate a lot of opinions on this forum (and rightfully so). I'm just not seeing the connection between e-targets and the growth or decline of Bullseye as a sport.

I freely admit I'm a noob so feel free to educate me, or throw rocks, or ....

Clay

The observed history of e targets at International matches seem to suggest that they have done nothing to increase participation while at the same time significantly driving up the cost of matches.
    
    In my mind, the whole e target plan reminds me of  the old allegorical tale about a guy who cant afford to maintain his twenty year old pickup truck, so he decides to replace it with a brand new  Maserati.  

If they don't have the money to maintain the old system at Perry, how the heck do they think they are going to come up with several million  for a new electronic system that will also require some of the same upgrades to the range like new benches, that they say they don't have the money for now?

The observed history of e targets at International matches seem to suggest that they have done nothing to increase participation while at the same time significantly driving up the cost of matches.
    
    In my mind, the whole e target plan reminds me of  the old allegorical tale about a guy who cant afford to maintain his twenty year old pickup truck, so he decides to replace it with a brand new  Maserati.  

If they don't have the money to maintain the old system at Perry, how the heck do they think they are going to come up with several million  for a new electronic system that will also require some of the same upgrades to the range like new benches, that they say they don't have the money for now?

Bingo!!! Close the thread, turn off the lights and someone buy this person an adult beverage.

Chip