The model 41. Your opinion

After shooting a Ruger Mark III for a number of year I felt it was time to move to the next level. I decided on the model 41 due to its excellent reputation and the high esteem that it holds in the Bullseye world. All though it is extremely accurate and very reliable it has some design flaws that I'm finding difficult to overcome.(things that the European gun builders have mastered years ago. What's wrong with us?) 1.ergonomicly it is very cumbersome.2. It is heavy overall, top heavy in particular.3. It is not well balanced. 4.it has a lot of muzzle flip. Does anyone else share this opinion or am I just looking for an excuse for my bad scores

I have been completely satisfied with my 41.  It may just be a question of fit, it may grow on you after a while.  I had the option  of borrowing one for an extended time before the PO decided my box was a better home.

I've shot Ruger's since the 90's.  Still do have two which I shot every week.  Also had Trailside, Model 41, Marvel Conversion and HS Victor.

I'm back to Ruger with Volquartsen trigger group.  I like the balance and feel better than the others. 

Have you tried custom grips (Euro) or a trigger job?  If you already do not like the balance of 41, I would suggest that you do not buy it.

The Sig Trailside is only 22 I miss of the bunch.  Not nearly as heavy as a Model 41.  Larry's Guns in Maine has them in stock.  Trailside is now called Hammerli Xesse.  They now have good aftermarket triggers for them, barrel weights to change the balance point and several grip options.  By the way, these little guns are TACK drivers. 

I also think the Pardini .22 is one of the best Euro style rigs out there if money is available to purchase.

I had a new 41.  Couldn't get it to feed or eject reliably.  Sold it to a friend(she knew what was going on).  She sent it to a gunsmith who got it to work fine.  We shoot 2 NMC's and she was about a 500 shooter.  Haven't seen her in a few years, so I'm not sure how the gun is doing now.  I really like the Baikal IZH-35m.  But no spare parts for it, so I went to another obsolete gun. . . .Hammerli 208s.

I used a 41 w/ 7" brl cut to 5.5". I had a CMM 1911grip conversion on it and always shot it w/ a red dot.

A friend machined his 41 HB to dovetail shape. He took more than the min giving it a different contour and a lot less weight. It was the best balanced 41 I have handled.

Ron Habegger

I would really dig my 41 if I could find a grip I like that eliminates slide bite.

A 41 was used in the setting of the long standing high score for bullseye, 2680 in 1974, so they are very good guns, that said the older ones are of better built quality than the newer versions ive handled built in the last 10 years.

Dave, was that a stock from the factory 41 or did it have extensive rework done to it?

Flytrap1 wrote:Dave, was that a stock from the factory 41 or did it have extensive rework done to it

I cant say, if its the one I saw him shoot about 13 years ago it looked to have the stock barrel.

Hello,

I feel that shooting M41's are like drinking single malt scotch....they are an acquired taste.....I love my two M41's and am not looking to retire them.

That being said; with the same amount of care and feeding as any other quality arm, they will take you to the highest levels.  I believe, that until he was compelled to change by his current shooting team; Brian Zins was shooting a M41.

Jim

I recently added a fair looking 5 1/2" 1978 Model 41 to my collection of target pistols, and wanted to ask what is the secret in getting these pistols to run well, as mine is stove-piping and having empty-over-feed jams with CCI SV. I can see why it had very little wear on the inside. I have another descendent of the Walther Olympia, a Hammerli X-esse, that runs great.

What spring rate for standard velocity is recommended?
Any mag tuning tips?
Any extractor tuning tips?

While the finish on the outside is nice, I've seen Russian pistols with better machining on the inside and less rough edges.

Stephen

Sa-tevp wrote:I recently added a fair looking 5 1/2" 1978 Model 41 to my collection of target pistols, and wanted to ask what is the secret in getting these pistols to run well, as mine is stove-piping and having empty-over-feed jams with CCI SV. I can see why it had very little wear on the inside. I have another descendent of the Walther Olympia, a Hammerli X-esse, that runs great.  

What spring rate for standard velocity is recommended?
Any mag tuning tips?
Any extractor tuning tips?

While the finish on the outside is nice, I've seen Russian pistols with better machining on the inside and less rough edges.

Stephen

You might want to contact KC Crawford.  I had similar problems which he fixed for me.

It may come to that, but while I am not a gunsmith I am a mechanic, and would like to reach my limits without damaging the pistol.

(Also the price of shipping pistols hurts my wallet a lot. Next time I'll try a friendly shop rather than UPS)

I do like the way the 41 handles when it does chug through a full string of fire. Like a 747 going through turbulence.

I think the first step would be a Wolff spring assortment.  That was all it took to get mine running.

Flytrap1 wrote:After shooting a Ruger Mark III for a number of year I felt it was time to move to the next level. I decided on the model 41 due to its excellent reputation and the high esteem that it holds in the Bullseye world. All though it is extremely accurate and very reliable it has some design flaws that I'm finding difficult to overcome.(things that the European gun builders have mastered years ago. What's wrong with us?) 1.ergonomicly it is very cumbersome.2. It is heavy overall, top heavy in particular.3. It is not well balanced. 4.it has a lot of muzzle flip. Does anyone else share this opinion or am I just looking for an excuse for my bad scores

A lot has to do with personal prefference.  Just because I tell you they're great doesn't mean you are going to like one.  You can tell me that 10 year old bottle of red wine is really good because it cost $150 but to me it doesn't taste as good as warm dog pee.  I actually haven't tried warm dog pee but I bet it tastes better than the above mentioned wine.

here's my opinion on your issues:
1. ergonomics-  I have an XL Rink grip that I have done a little sanding to to allow me to get my finger on the trigger the way I want to  I also ground the corner of the frame off for the same reason.  So to me, with a little work, the ergonomics are good.

2. weight, it's heavy- Good, I like a heavy gun!  Mine with a heavy 6" barrel and Match Dot weighs in at 4#'s without ammo.  I like the weight because for me it slows ALL movement down.  If you want it lighter buy a Clark barrel or cut your barrel down.  Personally if my only choice for a 41 was a Clark barrel I wouldn't be shooting a 41.

3. balance- I like how mine feels.  It's a little nose heavy but that is what I want.  Being nose heavy also helps with #4.

If you don't like the 41 you don't like it no big deal.  Either don't buy one or sell the one you have and try something else.  There are a fair amount of other good choices out there.  There is nothing wrong with the Ruger.  The name stamped on the side is not holding you back.  However I totally understand wanting something else.  Maybe something "prettier" or "better" or "nicer".

I set up a 22/45 Lite for my 12yr old daughter.  With the dot it weighs 1#15oz's.  I really like that gun.  Even though it's really light it is easier to shoot than the 41 with a field barrel.  I also have a Walther SSP.  Great pistol for open sights.  Don't like it at all with a dot on it.

Bottom line is you have to find what works for you.  The point is to score as many points by the time the last shot is fired.  There are no extra points  awarded for brand name.  ALL of the brands (Walther, FWB, Smith, Pardini, FAS, Nelson, Marvel, Ruger,High Standard, Benneli, Unique, etc...) do the exact same thing!  They do what you tell it to do.  Find the one that listens the best and shoot it.

Scott

Sa-tevp wrote:I recently added a fair looking 5 1/2" 1978 Model 41 to my collection of target pistols, and wanted to ask what is the secret in getting these pistols to run well, as mine is stove-piping and having empty-over-feed jams with CCI SV. I can see why it had very little wear on the inside. I have another descendent of the Walther Olympia, a Hammerli X-esse, that runs great.  

What spring rate for standard velocity is recommended?
Any mag tuning tips?
Any extractor tuning tips?

While the finish on the outside is nice, I've seen Russian pistols with better machining on the inside and less rough edges.

Stephen

Same guy who did work for you can fix it, he had two of the nicest 41s I ever saw.

STEVE SAMELAK wrote:I think the first step would be a Wolff spring assortment.  That was all it took to get mine running.

Hello,

+1

Buy the calibration pack and then for the weight that works best (watching the functioning and the ejection pattern); purchase a couple of extras for backups.  For CCI Standard Velocity loads; I settled on one pound less than the factory standard weight.  Your choice may be different.

The only thing that I did additional to mine, to get them working great, was to hone a minor machining burr found on a feed ramp.  Brownells sells a 0.25 inch diameter stone that works great for this duty.

Jim

One popular modification years ago, was a factory 7 inch barrel reduced to 5.5 and lined.. I did many, as did Lou Lombardi of Falcon Machine and Alex Hamilton.  The gun did  have a unique feel to it.   
The 22 should use as strong a recoil spring as possible... I am opposed to lighter recoil springs.. Friction is the enemy.. Cocking pressure, and over cock.. It should not take two men and a boy to rack the slide.. I polish everything that moves and supports movement. The .22 has a rim that offers . .021 to hold onto on  a good day. The extractor must be right as well at the ejector. The 41 is a fine gun..

I'm not questioning the accuracy or reliability of the 41. It's more of a design issue. I find it to be very awkward and cumbersome to handle. It reminds me of a Broomhandle Mauser.

Flytrap1 wrote:I'm not questioning the accuracy or reliability of the 41. It's more of a design issue. I find it to be very awkward and cumbersome to handle. It reminds me of a Broomhandle Mauser.

many guns fit people different, you just need to try something else cause about the only thing you can do to a 41 is add a CMM 1911 grip adapter to change the angle to 1911 feel.

Your  looking for an excuse.  Can i use it?    Shot my best 50 yd slow fire with a  M41 HB 5.5"  Needed a few rounds fired after cleaning to make it reliable. Sold it.

I had a 41 7" brl cut to 5.5" as JK mentions. The feed ramp was gouged but towards the edge. I cleaned it up and as JK mentions I went thru it smoothing anywhere parts touched or moved etc. I used a 6# sprg for Aguila SV & Eley Sport. It shot well and functioned w/ everything but Wolf Std or something like that. It would NOT cycle. I even cut the lightest Wolf sprg just to shoot the brick. That didn't cycle it either?? The pistol was a bit as SA-tevp mentions, pretty rough inside. Mine was new.

I never cared for the gun. My scores were decreasing asf as my age increased so shooter's insight revealed the problem to be the gun.

I read about lining the brl as JK mentions. Q: is the change to get the twist rate closer to what match guns use?

Ron Habegger

While cleaning my Hammerli X-esse after a local indoor 900, I compared the X-esse bolt and extractor to the Model 41 I have. With a spent shell in the bolt face the X-esse extractor was just at the corner where the case and rim meet, and could not wobble in the bolt. There was virtually no gap between the bolt face and the extractor claw. The Model 41 with stock S&W extractor had about 0.010" gap from extractor tip to the case/rim corner, and the shell could be rocked.

Colt711 wrote: Q: is the change to get the twist rate closer to what match guns use?
Ron Habegger

No, it's to gain a true  match quality barrel..14 twist is just about universal for 22 RF pistols..

22 pistol extractors can be very tempermental. The 22 rim is very small. Eley has a very small radius at the junction of the case wall and rim.. Other manufacturers often have a much larger radius, which recuces the purchase available to the extractor.  The extractor should be carefully fit and adjusted. Cam out, the amount/distance the extractor moves outward, to allow the cartridge to slide up between it and the breechface should be carefully fit..I like .010/.015 max. The bottom edge should be smoothed,  radiused, and polished to prevent gouging and grabbing of the soft brass case. The extractor face which rides in the extractor cut out on the barrel breechface is often an area that results in light hits, by holding the slide back slightly due to crud build up, or excessive spring pressure created by, again, the cam out in this area...