Lengthy Article On Barrel Cleaning

http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html

ChipEck wrote:http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html

That's an excellent article by a noted authority...His book is worth reading..
Another good read on 22 is "Team Calfee The Book" The author is noted .22 rifle smith Bill Calfee. I don't know if it's still in print or not..
I only clean my chambers, and never the bore...

Respected Pistolsmith Jerry Keefer wrote:I only clean my chambers, and never the bore...

THANK YOU Jerry Keefer for making it OK for me to do the same thing.

Jerry, 

When you say "clean the chambers" does that include the use of a pull through after brushing?

Jerry Keefer wrote:

ChipEck wrote:http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html

That's an excellent article by a noted authority...His book is worth reading..
Another good read on 22 is "Team Calfee The Book" The author is noted .22 rifle smith Bill Calfee. I don't know if it's still in print or not..
I only clean my chambers, and never the bore...

 Found this book at Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Art-Rimfire-Accuracy-Bill-Calfee-ebook/dp/B005UZAYZQ/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1422760802&sr=8-3-fkmr1&keywords=Team+Calfee+The+Book

jmdavis wrote:Jerry, 

When you say "clean the chambers" does that include the use of a pull through after brushing?

Hello Mike...
I don't think it hurts to push a dry patch thru when finished with the chamber.. The coating on the Eley bullet is believed to coat the bore.. Removing the coating with solvent/scrubbing is what some of the top .22 benchrest shooters avoid. Their basis for this is,  that they notice it takes  20/30 rounds to bring groups back to pre clean size... I have never detected even micro scopic evidience of leading from Eley...

ChipEck wrote:

Jerry Keefer wrote:

ChipEck wrote:http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html

That's an excellent article by a noted authority...His book is worth reading..
Another good read on 22 is "Team Calfee The Book" The author is noted .22 rifle smith Bill Calfee. I don't know if it's still in print or not..
I only clean my chambers, and never the bore...

 Found this book at Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Art-Rimfire-Accuracy-Bill-Calfee-ebook/dp/B005UZAYZQ/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1422760802&sr=8-3-fkmr1&keywords=Team+Calfee+The+Book

Bill was a frequent contributing writter to Precision Shooting magazine.. His descriptive style of writting was unique..But he was an out of the box thinker, innovator, and built some championship rifles..I for one, learned a lot from him.  Unfortunately, PS magazine is no longer with us..

I have no fantasies about being in the same category as these legends. I have only the following contrary personal experience to the never clean a 22 bore camp. 

Backstory, I've been a follower of Precision Shooting magazine for decades and dimly recall the article regarding Eley mfg never cleaning their test rifle bores.  I took that to heart & never cleaned a 22 bore for decades.  The link below is why I changed my mind.  Not trying to change anyone's technique or cleaning practices but just letting folks know there's data that conflicts with the no cleaning option.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t2920-cleaning-lubricating-22-bullseye-pistol#18170

I suspect the reason there was such a change was the wide variety of ammo & lubricants deposited in that MKII over the years.

Al

Jerry,
Can you explain your chamber cleaning process?

Steve B wrote:Jerry,
Can you explain your chamber cleaning process?

Nothing but a good cleaning before a match..I want the ring removed.. Usually a patch damp with Kroil.. It that doesn't get out, ,I add a little JB. I avoid brushes..

Jerry Keefer wrote:... I avoid brushes..

I've run across this admonishment often, especially with respect to .22lr barrels.  Why?  Is it because of the level of cleaning involved?  Brush bristles softer than the barrel material can't do any damage, correct?

Frankly, the whole notion of a cleaned barrel having an adverse effect on a gun's accuracy seems illogical to me.  I'll be reading the referenced lead (no pun intended) article and the book that was later mentioned with interest.

my Kart 45 barrel never needs cleaning
just like Jerry, clean out the ring and call it a day

ChipEck wrote:http://www.rrdvegas.com/rimfire-cleaning.html

Thanks for posting a link to this well written article.  I found it very informative.  It answered a lot of questions parked in the back of my head and also raised a few more.

"Brush bristles softer than the barrel material can't do any damage, correct?"

I guess lawn mower blades never dull cutting grass. Razor blades never get dull cutting whiskers. Saw blades cutting pine boards never get dull.
Brushes will remove metal not much at a time but some. How much are you willing to live with?

I do a fair amount of lapping.. Not slides and frames, but other parts.. The laps are made from a soft material, such as brass.. The abrasive particles easily imbed into the softer material and cut. I bore scope a lot of barrels. The interior micro finish of a true match barrel such as Shilen, Lilja, Lothar Walther, and even Douglas are something I'd rather not compromise or abuse. The lands are very sharp and square. Far removed from mass produced factory guns, which might benefit from cleaning because of the poor interior finishes which pick up and hold debris.

I've come to realize that the barrel will tell you what it wants, we just h have to be quiet, listen and not jump to any preconceived conclusions with never and always. The pictures by Al look like perfect before and after carbon / lead ring removal results. Less cleaning can be better than more, but may not be better than none. For most .22s I start with just chamber, carbon ring cleaning and just pull through patch for barrel. Then see how it shoots over some time. Rarely found need to brush .22 bore, but can't say never. The major problem is most shooters do more damage than good with a cleaning rod and ill fitting brushes. Ranks right up there with a Dremel tool for removing value from a gun.

.45s with lead or jacketed need different process, but again less cleaning and more careful cleaning is generally a good thing. Fortunately my .45s don't lead and jacket fouling is pretty easy to remove. Hoppes, JB Cleaner and Kriol are about all I need.

Good luck and happy cleaning!

Jerry Keefer wrote:Far removed from mass produced factory guns, which might benefit from cleaning because of the poor interior finishes which pick up and hold debris. 

The post that showed a huge difference in accuracy after a cleaning was dealing with a stock-barreled Ruger with A LOT of rounds through her.

Jerry Keefer wrote:I do a fair amount of lapping.. Not slides and frames, but other parts.. The laps are made from a soft material, such as brass.. The abrasive particles easily imbed into the softer material and cut. I bore scope a lot of barrels. The interior micro finish of a true match barrel  such as Shilen, Lilja, Lothar Walther, and even Douglas are something I'd rather not compromise or abuse. The lands are very sharp and square. Far removed from mass produced factory guns, which might benefit from cleaning because of the poor interior finishes which pick up and hold debris.

What Jerry is saying about softer material and abrasives is very important when it comes to surface finish. If you use two hard materials where the abrasive material is allowed to roll between them it is called grinding and the surface finish will be rough. If one of the materials is soft so that the abrasive material is imbedded into it the abrasive will shave material off and this is called polishing and will leave a much smoother surface with the same size abrasive grit than the grinding process. When lapping something, it is imperative not to have the abrasive material roll between the surfaces. Grinding wheels are hard polishing wheels are soft.

pistol champ wrote:"Brush bristles softer than the barrel material can't do any damage, correct?"

I guess lawn mower blades never dull cutting grass. Razor blades never get dull cutting whiskers. Saw blades cutting pine boards never get dull.
Brushes will remove metal not much at a time but some. How much are you willing to live with?

Isn't it the abrasive material (sand, dirt, etc.) that is carried on these things that actually dull blades as opposed to what is being cut?

I have been lurking for several months, but will post on this one.  I am predominantly a rifle shooter, good enough to have been on stage at Perry a couple of times, and do gun work (mostly barrels now), but have seen duty as a fill in for "general gunsmithing" at a local gunshop a number of years ago.

One observation that I little understand is that bullseye pistol shooters seem to have a strong faction that believe the only time a firearm, especially a .22 rim-fire should be cleaned is when it quits functioning. Of course, there is the rifle faction that believes in cleaning in between every breath.  

A conversation with Lt. Col. Wigger (retired) and another shooter about the development in the late 80's/early 90's of the now defunct Federal Gold-Medal Match .22LR yielded some interesting info regarding cleaning. Apparently, Dr. Palmisano (of 6MM PPC fame) conducted experiments for Federal regarding chamber dimensions, what would shoot, and the behavior of rifles from clean to dirty.  The  info that I recall is that the barrels of the several rifles used all required several (less than 10) rounds to settle in, and then would shoot, with continuing reduction in group sizes until the 65-80 round mark hit and then they started opening up again. Accuracy standards for rifles at 50meters is groups less than .4" outside to outside.  Wigger, who also oversaw lots of ammunition testing from a cradle while at Ft. Bennings AMU cleans after every 40 shot match.  Not aggressively, but he cleans. I would suspect that his reasons for doing so are based on much of experience of the testing, as well as his shooting experience.

The author of the article mentioned in the beginning makes good note of the black ring, where erosion begins, or is worse at (6'oclock), and I can tell you from shooting rifle that when the ring appears, so do unexplained/off-call shots.  I am like Jerry in the belief that that area needs cleaning to keep the carbon and other build-up minimal, but also clean the whole barrel.  The patches tell me when it is clean, and a good barrel will clean up in less than 3-4 patches, after a couple passes with solvent on a nylon brush.

The pitting that the author shows is something that I can honestly say that I have not seen in the several hundred barrels that I have scoped and replaced. I believe that it can happen for many of the reasons he mentioned, and will add the possibility of using different solvents in the cleaning routine, as well as the solvents one uses.  Boots Obermeyer (barrel maker) tested some combinations of solvents and found at that time (90's) that mixing Shooters choice with ammonia based cleaners could cause problems.  He also mentioned that ammonia based cleaners that are left in the barrel instead of being thoroughly removed and then well oiled to prevent rust will cause chemical reactions and metal deterioration.

Me, I will clean. My rifles shoot better, and more consistently, and my S&W 41 certainly prefers to operate without having the gunk built up on the front of the bolt and under the extractor. Any .22 that I ever had someone tell me "it quit working" first needed severe cleaning from all the gunk that had been left to linger, cause wear, and turn into some nasty binding agent. Why would someone want to leave all that mess there?

-Ron