going from pistol to rifle

First topic message reminder :

I'm planning on dabbling with high power rifle. Any thoughts on making the transition? I'm just curious, I'm sure members of this forum are proficient in both pistol and rifle. I have virtually zero rifle experience......

I was curious so I looked it up. There were 7 competitors shooting AnySight at Camp Perry last year. highest AnySight score was 8th overall, Service Rifle was 7 points behind that but with a higher X count. One person competed in the Service Rifle Optical category (185th overall)

Overall scores
1st) 1789 - 76 HENDRICKS, JOSEPH W HM -CIV. MATCH RIFLE
8th) 1780 - 76 LANKFORD, KENNETH -ANYSIGHT MATCH OR TACT. R
13th) 1773 - 84 MSG CARLSON, JULIA L, USMC RES -SERV. SERVICE RIFLE

https://danieldefense.com/firearms/rifle-length/daniel-defense-mk12.html
OK, so with iron sights where can I compete with this in NRA Highpower. Could I make eligible for pursuing distinguished by changing the stock?

orpheoet wrote:https://danieldefense.com/firearms/rifle-length/daniel-defense-mk12.html
OK, so with iron sights where can I compete with this in NRA Highpower. Could I make eligible for pursuing distinguished by changing the stock?

If you put iron sights on it you could compete in NRA match rifle category. If you put an optic on it would put you in the optics class. Sorry, but there are several things that disallow it from the CMP service rifle class. I believe that the CMP will be more proactive in rule changes that, in the future, will allow a rifle of this configuration to compete in CMP service rifle matches. Just like the other thread about how CMP is looking to get  pistol manufacturer support, so they made rule changes, they will do the same in rifle at some point. There will be plenty of opposition but no matter what they do there will be some.

Like I said, there is no reason to not start attending rifle matches using whatever sights you want. That rifle should shoot great for across the course matches. The fundamental skills will have a greater impact on your score than the rifle.

orpheoet wrote:https://danieldefense.com/firearms/rifle-length/daniel-defense-mk12.html
OK, so with iron sights where can I compete with this in NRA Highpower. Could I make eligible for pursuing distinguished by changing the stock?

You need to consult the CMP rulebook, but no, it will never be a service rifle under current rules.

A lower is just a holder for the mag, upper and buttstock.  You can compete in match rifle with just the addition of removable sights.  Go that route for now.  Then get an A2 configuration rifle for service rifle.  If money is real tight, sell the DD and get a purpose built A2.  You could swap the butt for an A2 config and buy an upper but my vote would be for a complete rifle at this point.  But go to a match and see what it is all about first.  Then decide your course of action.

When you get ready, talk to one or two of the smiths listed on this page, http://www.accurateshooter.com/competition/top-smiths-for-ars-and-space-guns/   these people have the most experience and can advise.  Scott Medesha and Derreck Martin are shooters themselves and have been where you are.

If you are not a reloader you will want to get going on that too. Don't get too wound up in playing with ballistic charts and different loads for each yard line. Make your life simple and work up a good load with a 77gr Sierra MK or a 75 Hornady and shoot lots. The folks at Creedmoor Sports are very helpful and can give you good tips on a jacket and other gear that will really help you. Get a really good sling and a book on how to use it. Spend time getting into your positions and take advantage of people who are good coaches. Little changes in your position make big differences on target. Have fun. It is habit forming.

Been pricing equipment and additional reloading gear so I can start shooting service rifle. Ouch and I thought bullseye was spendy >.<

KevinB wrote:

orpheoet wrote:https://danieldefense.com/firearms/rifle-length/daniel-defense-mk12.html
OK, so with iron sights where can I compete with this in NRA Highpower. Could I make eligible for pursuing distinguished by changing the stock?

You need to consult the CMP rulebook, but no, it will never be a service rifle under current rules.

New rules says it's legal as is - except it must have an A1 or A2 pistol grip, and the quad rail can be no longer than 12" (quad rail was added to the 2015 rules).  I can't tell if the cheek pad is adjustable - that is a no no.  Stock length adjust-ability is OK cheek pad height - no.

These are not published yet but according to this link they are moving forward with these changes.
Here are summaries of the most important 2016 rule changes in the CMP COMPETITION RULES FOR SERVICE RIFLE AND PISTOL:
Optical Sights For Service Rifles.  For several years, the CMP has recognized that optical sights are the wave of the future for Service Rifle shooting.  Military recruits today do all of their training with optical sighted rifles.  Service Rifle rules have traditionally tried to keep abreast of military rifle and training developments so opening Service Rifle shooting to optical sights became an inevitable change.  The 2016 rules will, for the first time, permit M16/AR15-type rifles to have optical sights with a maximum magnification of 4.5X.  Legal scopes can be fixed power or variable, but the maximum power of variable scopes may not exceed 4.5X.  Scopes will have to be manufactured with a maximum 4.5X magnification and have an objective lens no larger than 34 mm.  There will not be a separate class for scope-sighted rifles.  Instead, competitors will have a choice of using either a scope-sighted rifle that weighs no more than 11.5 pounds or a metallic sighted rifle that will continue to have no weight limit.
More Options For M16/AR15-Type Rifles.  Since accurized Service Rifles first came into popular use in the 1950s and 1960s, those rifles, whether M1s, M14s or M16s and their commercial equivalents, have been rigidly defined.  Legal M16-type service rifles had to retain the external profile of an M16A2 or M16A4 rifle and could only have modifications that were explicitly permitted in the rules.  All this will change in 2016.  The 2016 service rifle rules will state that M16/AR15-type Rifles must be “an M16 U. S. Service Rifle or a similar AR15 type commercial rifle that is derived from the M16 service rifle design” and there will be far fewer specific restrictions.  2016 restrictions will simply require M16/AR15-type rifles that:

• Are chambered for the 5.56 x 45 mm (.223) NATO cartridge.
  
  
• Are designed or modified for semi-automatic fire only.
  
  
• Have either a gas-impingement system or a piston-operated gas system.
  
  
• Have a barrel that is no longer than 20 inches, with or without a flash suppressor (16” barrels are permitted).
  
  
• Use one upper receiver and barrel for the entire match.
  
  
• Have a trigger pull of at least 4.5 pounds.
  
  
• Use standard service magazines or commercial equivalents that do not contain added weights.
  
  
• Have a fixed or collapsible butt-stock that may vary in length and even be adjusted between firing stages. Butt-plates or cheek-pieces may not, however, be adjustable.
  
  
• Have a standard A1 or A2 pistol grip.
  
  

This will open the way for competitors to use a wider variety of M16/AR-16-type rifles.  The imposition of a weight limit for scope-sighted rifles reflects a long-simmering concern over how heavy Service Rifles became when there was no weight limit.  15, 18 or even 20-pound rifles are far removed from the original service rifle weights.  Opening Service Rifle shooting to optical-sighted rifles offered an opportunity to at least establish a reasonable weight limit for these rifles before they come into widespread use in Service Rifle competitions.

- Dave

The rules are not completely finalized. For one thing we don't know if a rifle will require an AFrame front sight or if a Low Profile Gasblock and removable sight will be allowed. But as to the cost. 

Service Rifle is certainly less expensive than bulls eye both in terms of equipment and ammunition quantity. 

Service Rifle A2 uppers from White Oak are $750 or so, a Geisslie Trigger is $279 (or on sale right now for $200), a stripper lower is 65 and a build kit minus trigger is $40. 

Then you will need a mat, coat, scope of some kind and a stool. 

For reloading you can get along fine with a single stage press. 

A midway mat is $35, a canvas coat is $70, a Champions choice scope is $169 or a pair of bins, and a stool is $70. 

To take it up a notch you can add a $129 ravin wheel kit to your stool and $200 for an HP scope stand. 

So in the end we have a rifle at $1100, mat at $35, coat at $70, stool at $70, $129 for wheels and $200 for a scope stand. Magazines are $14 each and you want at least 4. 

That all totals $1773. $1773 buys how many 22 target pistols and wad guns?

Thanks JM for the price list,  but I still believe that bullseye is cheaper Springfield Range officer 800 Nelson conversion  420  Strong box 220  Celeston scope  45. total 1485 can spend the rest on a gunsmith to tune up the barrel fit for under 300

With A single gun and conversion you are right. But if you are using a dedicated 22 and a dedicated 45, costs are going to top 2k easily. Heck you could easily spend $2k on just a 22.

My path.

I had a 22 NM upper.  I sold it.  I never found it to provide better insight than an Appleseed Liberty Training Rifle 10/22.

I'm planning on putting a 4x scope on the MK12 and an A2 grip. But I think I'll pick up an A2 service rifle before spring. The rail is 12", and cheek piece is not adjustable......

Dewey, 


I just came to this topic to post the link to your post on NM forums. Congratulations on Rifle and Pistol Distinguished Medals.

Christopher Miceli wrote:Been pricing equipment and additional reloading gear so I can start shooting service rifle. Ouch and I thought bullseye was spendy >.<

Standing on one side of the fence looking at the other side has more self imposed barriers than actual barriers. 

the exact opposite of this conversation happened a couple of years ago on the main rifle site. go figure. Hi Masters there claimed a person needed a $3000 hardball gun to compete in EIC matches, then you could only use it 4 matches a year so you also HAD TO HAVE a wadcutter pistol to shoot NRA matches, then there was a 22. on and on with the disinformation (excuses, I say).

Chris, there are plenty of deals on rifle gear. use the winter to accumulate gear and get started next spring. it's not that much different than pistol. there are smart ways to start, usually following the guidance of a seasoned shooter. Or place barriers in front of you until your eyes weaken and then use that as an excuse. Now there  are scopes allowed though so that excuse is no longer valid, oh wait they are too expensive. the excuses just go on and on if you want to start down that road.

Thanks Robert, I am slowly building a lower low. Thanks to black friday deals, got a lower,parts kit, geissele trigger and magpul ubr stock.

jmdavis wrote:The rules are not completely finalized. For one thing we don't know if a rifle will require an AFrame front sight or if a Low Profile Gasblock and removable sight will be allowed. But as to the cost. 

Service Rifle is certainly less expensive than bulls eye both in terms of equipment and ammunition quantity. 

Service Rifle A2 uppers from White Oak are $750 or so, a Geisslie Trigger is $279 (or on sale right now for $200), a stripper lower is 65 and a build kit minus trigger is $40. 

Then you will need a mat, coat, scope of some kind and a stool. 

For reloading you can get along fine with a single stage press. 

A midway mat is $35, a canvas coat is $70, a Champions choice scope is $169 or a pair of bins, and a stool is $70. 

To take it up a notch you can add a $129 ravin wheel kit to your stool and $200 for an HP scope stand. 

So in the end we have a rifle at $1100, mat at $35, coat at $70, stool at $70, $129 for wheels and $200 for a scope stand. Magazines are $14 each and you want at least 4. 

That all totals $1773. $1773 buys how many 22 target pistols and wad guns?

Where the heck are you seeing the Geisslie trigger for $200?????

ASchlem,
If you know someone going to SHOTSHOW they usually sell them there for $200 or so. I got mine for 200 from a person who went. Other than that I have seen an occasional sale at that price.

geisslie had 20% off for black friday now they have 15% off for Christmas.

somebody was able to get the rights to produce the Krieger-Milazzo trigger again. it's quite a bit less expensive than the Geiselle and is a very capable trigger. The AMU used these for many years and they are known to be reliable for many 1000's or rounds.

http://www.wisconsintrigger.com/

Thanks for the info guys.

Just looked on Geiselle, they don't offer 15% off the hi-speed NM Match or Service rifle trigger. What is the difference between the Match, Service, and Marksman Rifle trigger? Same except trigger weight? where does the Marksman weigh out?

robert84010 wrote:somebody was able to get the rights to produce the Krieger-Milazzo trigger again. it's quite a bit less expensive than the Geiselle and is a very capable trigger. The AMU used these for many years and they are known to be reliable for many 1000's or rounds.

http://www.wisconsintrigger.com/

A good friend of mine was the National Champion two years ago and built  my rifle.  His rifle and mine both had RRA 2 stage triggers.  He won a bag of Geiselle triggers after that and uses them now.  I will get a Geiselle someday, but when they're on some crazy black friday or other discount.   All triggers should be reliable for 1000s of rounds.  The AMU and other service teams use solvent tanks, which can destroy some components over time, apologies in advance, but I can't recall the other trigger company that was abandoned because they didn't hold up.  That's one of several areas Geiselle stood out. 

I think my rifle was about $800 to build and effectively is an exact copy of my teammate's, down to the barrel, with only one difference, which is that my rear sight isn't pinned, which I will eventually fix. 

http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/uppers-service.htm

All triggers are not reliable, Jewel's are known to lighten up and not make service rifle weight, the one I started with didn't even make a thousand rounds before the springs would not hold weight.  I don't know if you're eluding to the AMU stopping use of KMII triggers because they didn't stand up to solvent tank use but I can guarantee that is not the reason, the triggers were only made for a couple of years. The AMU ran them for over 10 years, they lasted for many 10,000 of rounds. The Team out of Quantico also ran Milazzo triggers for many years.
I used a RRA trigger also, ran fine, lightened up after a couple thousand rounds, no biggie. KMII ive used for twice that and it's never hiccuped once.