Thoughts on a 3 gun combo

Well I've been thinking (I know that can be dangerous, me thinking about guns!) about what I'm going to do with a gun and two slides; a Colt 1952 made Commercial 1911 in .45 and a complete upper in .38 Super.  The .45 frame and slide have been chrome plated with factory sights; the .38 Super is nickel with a modified Patridge front sight and a US marked Triangle adjustable rear sight.  They are at DerrPrecision for stripping the old finishes off, polishing, rebluing, and a general check for fit and function.  The .45 slide will have a Novak lo-profile rear sight and gold (brass) dot front sight; the .38 Super sights will remain on the gun.

Here's what I've been thinking; I also have two Colt .22 conversion units - am I overthinking it by figuring having a three gun set, using the frame as a host for all three calibers; the .22, .38 Super, and the .45.  I doubt if I would ever make it to Camp Perry to compete; but many years ago while stationed in Cleveland I shot on a Coast Guard .22 Pistol Team, in the Cuyahoga County Pistol League.  We're talking like 83-84 time frame.  I was issued a Coast Guard marked S&W Model 41 (I wish I could have that one); I shot left handed (dominant eye) and had modified the stocks for a lefty.  I had never shot Bullseye; in the 2nd Season I got good news and bad news - I received a plaque for placing in the Marksman Division; that was good - but I was the 26th Marksman overall, the last one to get an award!  I think my average was 226.xx something.  I wouldn't mind shooting in the local gun club's (Bluewater Sportsman Club near Port Huron, MI) bullseye league now that I'm retired and have a lot of spare time.

So what's your opinions on this three gun combo?

Here's the before photo of the guns...

It looks like a great setup! How long before we see the refinished version?
I think you should have Derr Precision set up the .45 slide with the same sights as the .38 super. I think that will give you the same sight picture with all 3 slides.

I look forward to seeing the "after" photos!

Thanks Rob I understand what you're saying - the original intent of the sights on the .45 are for a Carry Gun set-up.  Trying to keep costs down.

Greg just got them from me last week; when I get his estimate I'll have an idea of when I'll get them back.  Enough time for me to make a box...

The only flaw is that the 38 super ejector is thicker than the 45, so they have to be swapped out a d that isn't something done as normal stripping and assembly.

Wobbley - I know it isn't done with a normal strip/reassembly but pushing a single pin out, removing the .45 ejector with the .38 Super doesn't take very long at all...

Your guns look great! I hate to rain on your Parade,
 However when I was starting out I did well in Marksman class, I would destroy the class when shooting an 1800. Usually won it across the board. Went to Perry and did very well in Marksman, shot Master scores in 22, same in centerfire! But when I got to 45 I went into the toilet! The 45 kept me in Marksman Class! If there was a minimum score for Marksman I probably was well below it!
 A shooting friend of mine had been going to Perry since back when they slept in Tents. Knew quite a few of the top shooters and brought over a few to talk to me. They asked to see my 22's I showed the a Britarms, Walther and a Hammerli. Great they said. What do you have for Centerfire? Wather .32, S&W 52 and a Colt National Match .38. OK what about the 45? I dragged out my stock Colt Gold Cup.
 They then said, want to be good? Take those centerfire guns and throw them in the Lake or better yet sell them and get a good .45. Shoot only the 45 in centerfire! I took their advise, went home and got a good 45. Shot only the 45 at 1800 and 2700. Following year I shot as an Expert at Perry and when I got home I had a Master Card waiting for me!
 Fast forward my son Adam starting shooting good so I built him a 45, that's all he shot. Broke 2600 as a Junior and I think he still has the Junior Record.
 Adam is now in the AMU. Their smith built a few tack driving 32's. A few started shooting them and their scores were outstanding, Guys like Henderson, Rose, Parks and other top shooters. After a bit their 45 scores began to drop. They stopped shooting the 32!
 So you might want to rethink 3 guns and work with 2, at least that's my opinion, I'm not saying your wrong but almost all the top shooters stay with the 45. Something you might want to consider.

Froneck - I also have several other guns to "play with" including a Jim Clark made Long Slide .38 Special with two Colt magazines, another, possibly Dinan built .38 Special from a Colt .38 Super, and a S&W Model 52-1.

Thanks everybody for your advice and opinions...

Froneck - I think most would agree with your assertion, at least based on the number of times I've encountered it here, but wouldn't it be a better test of a pistolero to demonstrate proficiency in three distinct calibers, e.g. .22lr, centerfire and .45?

Everybody has different goals for this sport.

Sure the .45 scores are better for a shooter shooting .45 for both CF and .45 stages.

I don't see any problem with having fun with 3 different calibers.

Well I guess it's all how you look at it. I don't think there is a requirement to show proficiency with all three guns. I know of no match that requires that one must use all three. Same goes with revolver, you can use it in the matches if you want. Only match requiring the Revolver is the Harry Reeves and the Distinguished Revolver. One of the biggest reasons to get the .22 conversion is to be able to shoot a gun similar to the 45. When you take it up a notch and look at the Olympics the top shooters only shoot one gun in one venue.
 It all depends on what you want. If you enjoy shooting all three then by all means do so! But if your interested in moving up in class and becoming a match winner then I would think that following the path to become a top shooter is what needs to be done. Remember those AMU shooters I spoke about can pick-up any caliber and do exceedingly well. Shooting the 45 they did very good, were winners at Perry even with the Service 9mm. When they used the 32's they were even better so they were very proficient with that gun too. What happened is their time with the 45 was less and their total scores were lower.
 My intent is to offer a tip to those interested in moving up in class. It's up to the shooter to decide what he would like to do. When I started shooting the only pistol allowed in the National Match was the 1911 45acp. Since then the 9mm was added. If getting distinguished is part of your goal I would think using the 9mm in centerfire would help if you plan on using the 9mm in EIC matches. Many shooters back then would use 45 ball gun in centerfire and sometimes in the 45 match to gain proficiency with ball so as to be awarded the Distinguished Medal.
 Simply put the ball is in the individual's court. The goal is his to decide and the path by which he intends to travel is his to choose. I only offer a course on one of the many paths.

Frank

I'd think hard about buying another frame and have two complete guns. It won't cost all that much more to do from the gunsmithing end and I think will be more fun long term.

I agree with HenryA. Getting 3 slides to function without alibis on one frame will be a challenge. Function is one of the  problems with the conversions. Not to mention the trigger weight unless you intend to shoot a 3.5 pound trigger in all calibers. Your not that far from Camp Perry, Caspian sells seconds some of the flaws are very minor. I'm sure if you contact your local dealer and get a copy of his FFL Caspian will be happy to send what ever you buy to the dealer. Be a nice trip and you may want to signup for the school the CMP runs and taught by the AMU.

Once again thanks all for the advice.  Twenty-two isn't a problem for me; I have a lot of options - including a Colt Officer's Model Target 6" .22 lr and a S&W K22 5 screw 6" .22.  I did "break out" a 1950's Colt Government Model and installed one of the .22lr conversion units on it.  I have enough 1911s (almost 60 of all types) that dedicating one specifically for .22 LR isn't a problem for me.  I also have a Ceiner .22 conversion unit (I think that would be best served as a "plinker gun" and a Sig P-220 .22 Conversion unit.  

I had a S&W Model 41 but even though I shot with one back in the 80s I didn't warm up to it this time so I sold it.

Obviously, my next step(s) are to get out there and practice, find the right ammo, practice, and did I say practice!

Let Greg be your guide... He can inspect the unit(s) and determine the potential..He never blows his own horn, but he is a very decorated and accomplished bullseye and international competitor.  The Colt 22 conversions are not noted for accuracy or reliability. Only you should decide if you want to use 2 or 3 guns. The potential of three gun is very high.. I know a few three gun shooters who do quite well. If the best you can shoot with a 45 wadcutter is 870, but you can put up 880s with a CF, it's a no brainer.. Experiment, plan, and test.. In PPC during my time we shot 6 gun..4 revolvers and 2 autos.. And had no problem doing extremely well with any and all..

In my opinion if you want to shoot three guns then do it.
Life is too short to not do what you want to do.

I will agree that the only way to get good at shooting the .45 is to shoot it a lot, no question.
Took me 4 years of dedication shooting the .22 and .45 to earn my master card.
That was my goal in NRA bullseye pistol.

Also earned my distinguished revolver badge and currently working on my service pistol badge.
All goals to achieve as I did when shooting skeet years ago attaining AA class across the board.

Now days I just shoot my Marvel unit one on a SA lower, model 52-1 and Clark Sr. long slide for the .45.
I have more fun doing this now cause it is not like work to attain anything.
Only goal left is service pistol and it will come some day.

If your goal is to go out and shoot, do the best you can, have some fun and quality time since you say you are now retired, then three guns it is

Enough of my rambling;

Clarence

I spoke with Greg the other day; am switching to an adjustable rear target sight for the .45 slide as well.  I carry my Colt Gold Cup Trophy that has an adjustable rear sight so it won't be a problem with an adjustable rear sight on a carry gun.

Why settle on 2 or 3? Those extra pistols in the safe need to be let out once in awhile. I would like to get a hard leg sometime also but I don't plan on that getting in the way of my #1 goal. Which is having fun. I won't be shooting any of the pistols next match that I shot at the last match. Would my scores go up if I only fired 2 pistols? Probably, but I wouldn't have the fun/challenge of beating the previous match with a different combo. Throw some iron sights or wheel guns into the mix if you are using the match to get ready for an important match. I know which pistols I can score the best with ( the ones that would be in the box going to Perry) but I like the challenge of shooting all of them. With 60 1911's I would need a longer shooting season

Len

60 1911's is too many! However I'm willing to help you out! Give me a few and I'll do all the work getting them shot!

Its fun to shoot 3 different guns, I tried  it several times and always found my 45 scores suffered to the point of my average was the same or lower than with two guns  but unless you are very proficient with the 45 as Jerry said then having fun will be ahead of moving up in class. 2 guns will move you forward faster,cheaper and with less issues, reloading for two calibers is more costly and time consuming too.

IMO 45ACP Makes a bigger whole than 38 or 32 therefore as the Target is the same size the bigger hole means a better score, flawed logic I know. 

Why reload 38s, 9mm, or 32s when you can just save a lot of time and energy perfecting and reloading 45s. 

Recently a guy next to me shot a 830's with a couple of GSPs in 22 and 32 and then he shot 700 maybe less with his 45acp. I am not sure what his score was I just remember beating him by 60 points and I was not having a great day after 2 double alibis in my 22lr. That's not for me and considering a 22lr gave me tendentious I would not be too concerned about recoil.

Rich, Reloading is half the fun of shooting. I would point out that the energy and cost to load any bullet is about the same. It does take a couple of extra minutes to switch calibers. But you have a point about the bigger holes. I suppose a person could shoot different .45s for each match. I can't help thinking about 60ish 1911s to play with.

Len

Recently I had Dave Salyer upgrade a Springer for me and I shot that for CF and my Les Baer for 45 to break the Springer in and get used to it. Its funny how two 1911s set up the same way can fell different in a match. 

If you are reloading jacketed bullets 9mm cost the same if not more than 45s. So if I am not saving $$ by reloading 9s then why bother because its a snappy round and the recoil feels about the same to me. 38'sp are kool but have to be hand loaded IMO. I hate reloading 9mm and 32s. 

I have been reloading since I was 9 years old when I reloaded for my may Dad after School. I did love it then. That was all with a turret or single stage press. 

I still like to reload but I also like my time with my family. So I keep it simple, 3.65 BE, 4.1 WST, 4.6 231 over a 185gn Zero HPLSWC, Starline and brass CCI primers, Taper .469, length, 1.238. I do that 1000x on Sunday and Monday night and I am good for a month or two. 

I recently got some VV 310 and 320 and the big selling point for me is the load data mirrors BE and 231. 

I'll get a 38 super some day and reload for that I am intrigued by the idea of 38 super. I had some bad luck getting a 9mm 1911 to run right and print with reloads. 

I think the 38 super in a 1911 has to be better today then in my Dad's era. With all the info today on accurizing the 38 super it is interesting for the long line. 

My friend Dave Lange has a Sams 38 Super  and its very impressive although Dave could probably clean targets with a Saturday night special while I need Formula 409.

OK - here's an update on the transformation of the .45/.38 Super Combo...Greg Derr - thank you sir!

The .45 was in nickel and the .38 Super was poorly chromed.  Greg explained the difference that nickel gave off a yellowish tinge and chrome blue.  I followed some of your advice and had an adjustable rear sight installed on the .45 slide.

Here's a photo that I took when I got the combo:



My request to Greg was to keep them fairly stock and make them old school Colt Blue.  Well knock my socks off...Greg posted photos on his Facebook Page "Derr Precision" - a few minor tweaks and they will be ready to be shipped to me!  

Previously to change calibers you removed the top end, drove the ejector pin out, changed ejectors, put the other top end on and continued shooting.  Greg has fit the slides to the frame with a close enough tolerance that there is no need for a ejector pin.  I can't wait to get this package in the mail!

Here are some of Greg's pictures; his camera skills make me look like I am using an old point and shoot camera from the late 1950s!






Special Thanks to Greg Derr for permission to Greg to use his photos

Oooooooh

OldMaster65 - please wipe the drool from your monitor!