Roll or crisp trigger discusion

Many have talked about what they prefer, a roll trigger or a crisp trigger.... How about a discussion on how the style you use works for you, what you feel is the advantage of how it works over the other. Zins clinics push the roll as the best.. maybe someone who has attended his clinic can tell us why he feels this way is best.

I like crisp or a very short quality roll.  Quality is the main point.  Don't ask me to define quality.  A good 52-2 trigger or High Standard 106-7, or a Colt or S&W revolver are amongst my favorites. 

Too long a roll, or creepy, or some other distraction are not good.

I tried a drop in roll trigger, not for me.

KC Crawford's roll trigger is first class.

That is the drop in trigger I purchased.  Maybe if KC would have fit it I might have had a different experience, but I do not think so.  KC is a great gunsmith, I am having him build a wadgun for me.  I mean no disrespect for KC at all.
My slow fire scores tanked.  I used it for six months and several matches.  My brain just cannot handle a roll trigger.  As soon as I switched back to my crisp trigger my slow fire scores went up.  Roll is not for everyone.

Chip

Chip
Do not dispare..I know some very good shooters that still ask for and depend on crisp triggers.

I have a mile long roll and I prefer it, especially in slow fire.  It allows me to make sure everything is going correctly during trigger movement.  If I'm having a problem, it shows in the sight and the roll gives me time to undo the mistake and abort.

I even have time to correct a mistake in rapid fire--but only time to correct 1 mistake.

All depends on the shooter. I have a short roll if that's the correct term. I can feel it move very smooth until the hammer falls. I think it's a bit too much but others say it's crisp! I can see it move because I made an Aluminum Bronze trigger for my gun. In doing so I purchased special solder and flux to attach Al. Bronze to the metal bow. To be sure it held I put a .047" diameter pin to hold it just in case. When I drilled the hole I went a little to much with the center drill so I have a .055" ring around the brass pin. It is not visible on the right side. When I pull the trigger take-up puts 1/2 the pin diameter under the frame, I can watch it move until almost all the pin is under the frame yet I can still see it when the hammer falls and the trigger hits the stop. So my trigger "rolls" or slides about .022".
 Now I'll explain why I like the "roll". One of the top shooter, me and a few others were shooting a match and waiting for our relay to be called. The topic came up about crisp or roll. The top shooter stated he uses a roll trigger as done by Geo. Madore because too many times in rapid fire he would be pulling the trigger when the target turned but realizing that time was running so he would jerk an 8 then finish the string with 10's and X's. He said when he pulled the trigger and felt it moving he knew it soon will go bang! Feeling the trigger moving he no longer needed to hurry a shot and jerk an 8. At the time I said to myself that is what I do! But I never changed the trigger until at one match my super crisp trigger developed a roll. I did OK in slow but my timed and rapid were the best I ever shot! As I continued to shoot the match I got better, my last rapid fire of the day I shot a 14 round alibi string and got 100-7X. Jokingly the scorer said he could only see 12 holes. However the range officer walked down with us and said he watched me put all alibi 5 rounds in the X. From then on I shot "roll" trigger!

I can't wrap my head around a "roll" being anything other than creep. I guess I'll just have to try a good roll trigger some day and see if it works for me. As Froneck described it above  it does seem to make sense. It does sound like more art than science to build one that way.

A roll has a steady feel to it either constant or slight increase in weight.  A creep is more erratic.

Over the years of shooting I have picked up quite a few guns others had. Feeling different trigger pulls and why I put roll in "" "". I'm not sure what roll is! I did feel a few that kinda moved, stopped, moved again. Another that when it starts to move the weight seems to get lighter sort of a slight down hill roll.
 I have managed to make the roll I like on my AW. Being it has a dual sear the second sear has almost no hammer pressure. There is no feel that the gun is about to fire. Being that the trigger can be adjusted for the amount of engagement that there is on the second sear and forward travel along with others I can adjust the trigger to feel like a fish scale. Simply put a spring fish scale (or any other spring scale) has a pointer that shows the amount a spring is stretched. It's a very smooth movement and applied to a gun will drop the hammer at the weight setting plus being able to adjust spring preload the amount of travel needed to fire is adjustable. I have managed to get this same feel on my 45.
 Some have what I call a roll-off trigger in that when the pull weight is reached the trigger pull gets increasingly lighter until the hammer falls. I don't like that but some do.
 Actually there is no such thing as a crisp trigger. Sears must have a minimum amount of engagement to be reliable and safe. Some say nothing less than .020" so depending on the ratio of the distance between the sear pivot pin and the hammer hook engagement to the disconnector contact the amount the trigger must travel will be quite near .020" if that is the  engagement amount. Simply put the trigger is made to feel crisp though it is not.
 So the problem is what is crisp and roll? The definition is quite vague. I know what I like and it's to feel the trigger moving so as to let me know that if I keep it moving it soon will go bang and I concentrate on keeping the dot in the center of the black. If my movement is too long then I begin to run out of time in rapid fire.
 Which one is best? That depends on the shooter, I also know as Jerry mentioned top shooters that use crisp triggers and others that like "roll" so what ever works for you is the best!
 In my case I had "roll" in the back of my mind but until I was forced to have to shoot a trigger that had quite a bit of movement I didn't think I would like it but as that match continued I changed my mind!

Much has been said about the True Radius sear and the critical .404 length to get the proper interaction between the hammer hooks and the sear. I understand that the concept of the TR sear is to not have an angle that has to be mated to the angle of the hammer so that it is neither camming the hammer back or allowing it to lower as the trigger and sear are moved. Is there a bit of a roll feel to that system, since it is in effect sliding across some part of the height or the hooks? I have not tried the TR jig and what I have always tried for is the "crisp" trigger.
Also shortening that sear the .003 or so that the jig provides for would also change that ratio you speak of. How noticeable is a couple thou.?

ChipEck wrote:That is the drop in trigger I purchased.  Maybe if KC would have fit it I might have had a different experience, but I do not think so.  KC is a great gunsmith, I am having him build a wadgun for me.  I mean no disrespect for KC at all.
My slow fire scores tanked.  I used it for six months and several matches.  My brain just cannot handle a roll trigger.  As soon as I switched back to my crisp trigger my slow fire scores went up.  Roll is not for everyone.

Chip

I had the same experience, but I didn't have it installed either, and it worked as advertised except the roll was like rob said his was a mile long and it just didn't work for me. I have found a very short roll does work long as its very smooth. Crisp has worked good too for me in the past so I keep switching back and forth trying to decide which I like better, just shot a match with a crisp and it worked good but im leaning back to the short roll as it just feels better dry firing.

I have done very nice roll triggers with the TR, I recently did a very nice crisp, the beauty of the TR jig is you really have to try hard to screw up a sear, it will make a good roll just by cutting the sear, if you want crisp just cut the secondary a lot to leave just a small primary surface.

kwixdraw wrote:
Also shortening that sear the .003 or so that the jig provides for would also change that ratio you speak of. How noticeable is a couple thou.?

A couple of thou will only change the ratio a small amount. I doubt it will be noticed.  The small distance will effect the ratio so that it will cause a small fraction of the needed additional trigger travel so what will be needed is much less than the .003 removed.
Furthermore from what I understand about the KC system is that the sear is longer than the .404 but the hammer is compensated for it. Using the TR jig will shorten the sear so it will not work with the hammer. The .404 critical dimension is for the 90 degree standard hammer hook angle.

Thank you for the clarification.

Froneck wrote:

kwixdraw wrote:
Also shortening that sear the .003 or so that the jig provides for would also change that ratio you speak of. How noticeable is a couple thou.?

A couple of thou will only change the ratio a small amount. I doubt it will be noticed.  The small distance will effect the ratio so that it will cause a small fraction of the needed additional trigger travel so what will be needed is much less than the .003 removed.
Furthermore from what I understand about the KC system is that the sear is longer than the .404 but the hammer is compensated for it. Using the TR jig will shorten the sear so it will not work with the hammer. The .404 critical dimension is for the 90 degree standard hammer hook angle.

No that is not the case.  The TR sear as it comes runs .405.  I have used sears down to the .402 on the pro jig and have had no problem at all achieving a safe trigger pull without any hammer follow.  The hooks on my hammer have been optimized to achieve the feel of a roll release.  A "short" sear, within reason, will still work.  But the trigger is going to start getting heavier because of the change in the fulcrum point of the sear to the hammer hooks.

I didn't intend to imply there would be anything unsafe by changing the sear length of your KC set within reason. Only that a relationship to hammer angle exists and any changes alter the feel. With the roll trigger feel is everything, some like it long, some like me like it very short and others want something in between. Over the years of shooting others have described their "roll" trigger many different ways.
 I know from my experience removing a slight amount from the sear will change the feel. It's very little and most will not notice it, I really can't either until I shoot a match or practice. Sometimes I like it, sometimes it's different but OK yet sometimes I have to change it usually by replacing or plating the sear.
 Though I have the KC hammer and sear it's on my pile of things to do however that pile keeps getting bigger. Now that I got a Morini MG2 so I'll be Red dot mounting and testing it.
 So many gadgets so little time

Maybe some of the trigger experts here could give us dimensions of the sear and hook length that gives the best feeling roll, ive also heard the 404 number for the sear, and 22-23 for the hooks but what type feel would you get with say a longer or shorter sear and longer or shorter hooks?

David, the set up will feel different from gun to gun.  When the sear gets shorter the trigger is going to start feeling harder because the hammer will be able to rotate closer to the firing pin.  I don't have numbers I can quote.  General rule longer hooks will produce a longer feeling roll.  When the sear starts getting to short the roll Wil probably be felt.  But it will also get harder to start the pull process.

What your asking is a magical formula. The hammer sear combination is a relationship based on many factors. The .404 is the theoretical amount based on the exact location of both hammer and sear pins. Any change in that distance will change the .404 number. That also goes for the exact location of the hammer hooks and the angle formed in relationship to the sear. Furthermore the effective amount of hammer hook will get shorter by the cosine of the angle change. Not to mention and radius developed on the edge of the hammer hook. As you know the secondary sear angle shortens the amount of usable hammer hook. Add to that the ratio developed by the distances to the disconnector engagement with the sear. Then comes the task of measuring those distances. Digital calipers are not accurate enough and dial calipers are worse.
 Any numbers then become a reference number.

I will add that my TR sear on 18 hooks is short and clean

no secondary angle cut at all.

for me I don't believe I would like it on 22 hooks. too many years on crisp triggers

I also have a Power sear jig that I've used for many years... From my limited experience the TR jig (1st generation)  is more fool prof and works very well on a long sear. my one example was an STI sear.

DavidR wrote:Maybe some of the trigger experts here could give us dimensions of the sear and hook length that gives the best feeling roll, ive also heard the 404 number for the sear, and 22-23 for the hooks but what type feel would you get with say a longer or shorter sear and longer or shorter hooks?

Some where, I'll have to do some searching, I have a description of trigger work written by a Marine Armorer who did Brian Zins triggers while Brain was still with the Corps.. I will just have to find it... It's well written, and describes the trials and tribulations of getting that "Just right Trigger" . The greatest advance in the 50 + years I have been struggling with 1911 triggers is the TR method..It takes a lot of the pain out of the process. Machines doing what can't be accomplished as accurately by hand..

Im sure we all will be looking forward to that post Jerry!

I like a roll trigger because I (unlike most) put my conscious focus on the trigger, not the dot/front sight. So the roll trigger gives me tactile feedback that I'm moving the dang thing.