Roll or crisp trigger discusion

First topic message reminder :

Many have talked about what they prefer, a roll trigger or a crisp trigger.... How about a discussion on how the style you use works for you, what you feel is the advantage of how it works over the other. Zins clinics push the roll as the best.. maybe someone who has attended his clinic can tell us why he feels this way is best.

Chip
Here's a thought..
The 1911 suffers from a trigger shoe and bow that essentially floats in its channel..restrained only by the tension of middle stem of the sear spring.. The early steel triggers were problematic during recoil, which involved either following or doubling caused by inertia /weight of the steel trigger, and the effort to reduce trigger pulls to 3.5lbs. Aluminum triggers and shoes go a much longer way to prevent such problems..Now the shoe in the picture is left so the shooter can radius/round/form the edges to suit his preference. He is a top flight shooter who has won his share, and knows his way around the game.. He specifically requested aluminum.. Adding excessive weight to the trigger is a recipe for problems.. You can research the specific weights of metals ..You will see that copper is approx. three times the weight of aluminum. Just a consideration to ponder..

I have had some light precision triggers on rifles that resulted in doubling, but never experienced doubling in a handgun, ever.

I have pondered how this would happen with a hand held firearm compared to a shoulder mounted firearm.

Shoulder mounted can happen cause it has in my experience cause recoil can so to speak bounce the rifle forward from your shoulder to cause the double.

Jerry, I need to visualize what you are saying.
You have way more knowledge and experience than I do and appreciate that, but educate me how doubling happens holding a pistol in one hand.

Clarence

DavidR wrote:Many have talked about what they prefer, a roll trigger or a crisp trigger.... How about a discussion on how the style you use works for you, what you feel is the advantage of how it works over the other. Zins clinics push the roll as the best.. maybe someone who has attended his clinic can tell us why he feels this way is best.

He probably thinks his way is best because it's what works for him.
Just sayin

C.Perkins wrote:
Jerry, I need to visualize what you are saying.
how doubling happens holding a pistol in one hand.
Clarence

A heavy, steel trigger is but one cause of follow or doubling. The wide steel Gold Cup trigger is the worst, because it is heavier.. The recoil basically causes the trigger to move rearward, bumping the sear out of engagement with the hammer hooks. The aluminum light weight trigger is less effected by the recoil impulse and easier for the center sear spring leaf to maintain control. Even with light weight aluminum triggers, I still apply generous forward pressure on the trigger for insurance..The 1911 trigger system "pushes" the sear out of engagement, were as, nearly all other triggers use a pivoting trigger and a transfer bar which pulls the sear from engagement.. A much easier system to control, not greatly effected by recoil impulse, and easier to tune..

Being I don't have much time to spend on this issue because I purchase a Horizontal Boring Mill and trying to fit it into my shop. The main problem is fitting 10 pounds of machinery in a 5 pound building especially when there is 11 pounds in it now! Just can't have too many machines (Toys)
 However I find that trigger weight is not an issue. I have taken the 1911 after it has closed on an empty chamber (definitely not loaded as the person I might shoot may be me!) banged it in every direction and not have the hammer fall. Using an old clunker with no grip safety so the solid steel trigger was able to do as it wanted banged it the direction far exceeding the closing of a loaded gun with trigger pull weights much less that 3 pounds and not one time did the hammer fall. My current bulleye pistol has a solid Aluminum Bronze Trigger with an extra wide shoe and it will not double! At Perry last year I was talking to a woman that had my extra wide shoe installed and she claimed that when she put it on the 1911 it would double or the hammer would drop. While explaining the problem I was told it worked fine without the shoe yet the hammer would fall when the slide was released even if the trigger was held to the rear. That's not possible since holding the trigger will remove any issue of the trigger causing problems due to weight! However I have found that improper or poorly fitted disconnector will cause the problem. If the disconnector can wedge between the trigger bow and the sear then when the slide closes it wedges between the bow and the sear with an upward force created when it's released by the slot cut in the slide an issue that is aggravated by the stop screw. It's possible that my shoe limited the rear travel just enough so that the trigger didn't hit the stop screw and allowed just enough room for the disconnector to wedge between the trigger bow and the sear.
 I can cause this problem in a pivot trigger by simply putting a slight rearward angle on the means of disconnecting so that the transfer bar that is usually pushed down by the slide can offer reward force to the sear as the slide closes! Usually in most of these type guns the trigger has to be released slightly more than what is needed when pushed rearward so that there is a slight take-up. I set my 1911 the same way, I have the disconnector set so that after the slide is allowed to go forward with the trigger held to the rear and the disconnector aligned with the slot in the slide, I let the trigger travel move very slowly forward until the disconnector is released to go up into the slide slot. I then check to see if there is any take-up. If there is none I change it to have some because is none or worse it will slowly travel up as the trigger is allowed to travel forward will cause the wedge and the gun double.