First time trying Dot Sight.... Bad idea.

I decided to put this under "fundamentals" but almost put it in "equipment". I tried a dot sight for the first time. Horrible! I shoot a Smith 41 with irons, but for trying a dot I just quickly mounted one on my Ruger MKIII Target. That dot bounces and moves all over the place! I was shooting about on par or a point bellow average at 25 yards. I did not get around to trying it out at 50 yards. The groups were crazy, unorganized, random. Not like my 41. My 41 with irons produces tighter, more consistent groups. I thought dot sights were supposed to be more accurate? 

You are confusing accuracy for aiming. Irons and scopes are for aiming the pistol. They do not affect accuracy! The dot shows you that you are human. We move. Takes practice to learn how to shoot a dot.
Jon

Jon Eulette wrote:You are confusing accuracy for aiming. Irons and scopes are for aiming the pistol. They do not affect accuracy! The dot shows you that you are human. We move. Takes practice to learn how to shoot a dot.
Jon

+1 on the above.

Dots or irons don't produce groups - you do.  The movement you see with the dot is happening with your irons too - you just don't notice it as much.  Changing from irons to dots there is a temptation to try and "snatch" that 10 - bad idea.

As Jon says it takes some time!

- Dave

So why do so many shoot with dots?

You ever seen a sewing machine needle while the sewing machine is running?

That's what my dot looks like

So, if you shoot so well with iron sights I presume you focus on the front weight? The red dot IS the front sight! Treat it the same and quit griping.

If your first attempt with a dot was with the Bushnell you mentioned in a previous post you really could have accuracy and aiming issues. I shot the highest scores of my life with steel sights...then I got older. The dot is easier to focus for older eyes.

Len

Tim:H11 wrote:So why do so many shoot with dots?

In my case it is because I can see the dot whereas I can not see the irons in indoor lighting (perhaps when I get different glasses that could change). Another advantage to the dot is that you greatly reduce the requirement for sight alignment other than to keep the dot somewhat centered in the tube.
That being said, I moved the cheap Pentax dot from my MK II to my 41 and shot it for the first time last night. Went from bad (240 or so) with the MK II to considerably worse (204, twice) with the same sight on the 41. Still, I like the 41 and will keep at it for a while. I don't expect appreciably better scores with it (it can, I can't) but do believe that I can get at least back to where I was or a little better.
Whichever pistol I put the sight on, the alternative would be to quit Bullseye until it is time to move back outdoors next spring!


Bruce

Don't watch the dot, watch the target.
http://www.brianzins.com/2010/03/19/aiming-the-dot-sight/

Why dots:
Only 2 things to worry about - the dot and the target.  Verses front and rear sight alignment and target.

I can adjust the brightness on my dot depending on available light.  When it gets cloudy I can't see my irons very well.  

If you ever shoot in a uncovered range like Camp Perry dots have an advantage.  The sun will play tricks on you as it will wash out the front sight and your group will move right or left, up or down depending on the time of day and direction of the sun.  On days where you have passing clouds, irons can be a real pain.

- Dave

I've read the Zins article about watching the target not the dot and so when I tried the dot this is what I did. However, I've also heard to watch the dot like a front sight. Two schools of thought. Maybe it'll depend on the shooter.

Jon Eulette wrote:You are confusing accuracy for aiming. Irons and scopes are for aiming the pistol. They do not affect accuracy! The dot shows you that you are human. We move. Takes practice to learn how to shoot a dot.
Jon

Mostly this. I know quite a few guys who shoot much better with irons than they do with red dots. I think the problem with 'dot shooting is that it reveals one's wobble area. Once you notice the wobble, you start focusing on that and lose trigger control as a result.

I say don't try too much watching the target when shooting dot.  UNLESS your hold is pretty stable.  You have to control the dot.  Once you control the dot, then you can graduate to looking at the target.  Or not.

dronning wrote:If you ever shoot in a uncovered range like Camp Perry dots have an advantage.  The sun will play tricks on you as it will wash out the front sight and your group will move right or left, up or down depending on the time of day and direction of the sun.  On days where you have passing clouds, irons can be a real pain.

Can't say that I agree with this. I have found that there are few places better for iron sights than Canton and Camp Perry. And a lot of top shooters seem to agree that the "group shifts with the sun" is often a myth (and then there are the ones who don't ).

Not saying that it doesn't happen for you, as it very well may, just that it is by no means universal.

The iron sight sun shift is there IMO, but if your hold is not within the shift, it is not easy to detect.  Myopinion of the sun on sights is good as you can see the sight in detail.  That is better than a silhouette in the shadows under cover with the target in bright sun.

john bickar wrote:

dronning wrote:If you ever shoot in a uncovered range like Camp Perry dots have an advantage.  The sun will play tricks on you as it will wash out the front sight and your group will move right or left, up or down depending on the time of day and direction of the sun.  On days where you have passing clouds, irons can be a real pain.

Can't say that I agree with this. I have found that there are few places better for iron sights than Canton and Camp Perry. And a lot of top shooters seem to agree that the "group shifts with the sun" is often a myth (and then there are the ones who don't ).

Not saying that it doesn't happen for you, as it very well may, just that it is by no means universal.

Agreed the impact of the sun changes do vary based on the person and 2 big factors are your aiming point and eye color.  I'd say the impact at 25 yards is not noticeable but at 50 yards it might move you from a center X to a high X or even a 10.  Again depending on the change in brightness. 

If you shoot center mass the amount of impact of the sun then cloud passing is almost zero on vertical group changes .  The reason your group may move is due to your iris changing and making the bull seem larger/smaller depending on light conditions.  If you shoot center mass there is no change but for someone that shoots sub six the bullet impact with be higher in bright sun verses when clouds may pass.  Side wash of the front post also depends on several things like do you carbon black your sights to reduce glare and even your eye color.  Blue eyes are more sensitive to this because your iris will adjust more in bright sun.

- Dave

ps. If there are no clouds I like shooting irons out in the open ala Canton/Perry the best.  I usually just wait for the clouds to pass.

The first year that I shot irons only at Camp Perry, the sights followed the sun by a few clicks of left to right each day.  This year, it was like John Bickar said--I didn't need to adjust for the sun hardly at all.  There must be something about where your focus really is that has an impact on this.

I wonder what Herschel Anderson would say about iron sights and sun.

I'm shooting dot with the .22 now, and irons for CF and .45.  I'm not sure what I'm looking at.....I shot a 285 in league last time out....with the .22 and a 277 with the .45.

I think that it's easier to focus when the dot and the trigger is the only thing to worry about.

dronning wrote:

john bickar wrote:

dronning wrote:If you ever shoot in a uncovered range like Camp Perry dots have an advantage.  The sun will play tricks on you as it will wash out the front sight and your group will move right or left, up or down depending on the time of day and direction of the sun.  On days where you have passing clouds, irons can be a real pain.

Can't say that I agree with this. I have found that there are few places better for iron sights than Canton and Camp Perry. And a lot of top shooters seem to agree that the "group shifts with the sun" is often a myth (and then there are the ones who don't ).

Not saying that it doesn't happen for you, as it very well may, just that it is by no means universal.

Agreed the impact of the sun changes do vary based on the person and 2 big factors are your aiming point and eye color.  I'd say the impact at 25 yards is not noticeable but at 50 yards it might move you from a center X to a high X or even a 10.  Again depending on the change in brightness. 

If you shoot center mass the amount of impact of the sun then cloud passing is almost zero on vertical group changes .  The reason your group may move is due to your iris changing and making the bull seem larger/smaller depending on light conditions.  If you shoot center mass there is no change but for someone that shoots sub six the bullet impact with be higher in bright sun verses when clouds may pass.  Side wash of the front post also depends on several things like do you carbon black your sights to reduce glare and even your eye color.  Blue eyes are more sensitive to this because your iris will adjust more in bright sun.

- Dave

ps. If there are no clouds I like shooting irons out in the open ala Canton/Perry the best.  I usually just wait for the clouds to pass.

Good points. I shoot center hold, and have green eyes*. My memory may be suspect - last time I shot at Canton with open sights was '09; my last time at Perry was '01. And my eyes were better then.

* I also like piña coladas, and getting caught in the rain. But really, my dream is for a truck labeled "ORM-D" to pull up to my house and start unloading its contents.

As an "old" PPC shooter, I can say that lighting or lack there of can have quite an effect on POA vs POI.. Beltsville, MD  Secret Service Range is completely covered.. Shooting next to one of the walls had an effect as opposed  to shooting in the center of the range.. Jackson, Miss. out door 100 position range.. Target #1 thru #50 had a slight slope to the back stop..#50 thru #100 had a high bank back stop creating a defined backing.. Better scores were fired 50/100.. Many of the knowing HM shooters desired to be squadded 50/100.. I shot my best 50/100 as did others. I commend center holders.. I worked diligently for years trying to perfect center hold.. When you're on, you're really on.. BUT when you're off, you're really off. Neck hold in PPC or 6 oclock in Bullseye was more consistent, and forgiving for me.. Very good advice from Don Nygord, was to increase my front sight to 5mm in width and adjust the rear to meet my requirements, extending my open sight shooting days by quite a few years. 
As for the dot, I believe as Brian Zinns.. Look at the target. The dot is merely a reference that requires very little attention.

Tim:H11 wrote:I've read the Zins article about watching the target not the dot and so when I tried the dot this is what I did. However, I've also heard to watch the dot like a front sight. Two schools of thought. Maybe it'll depend on the shooter.

In my opinion, you can do either,   If you want to make it easier to focus on the target, make your dot smaller and dimmer.  

If you want to focus on the dot, make it big and bright enough to cover the bull.


Your arm is what holds the gun on the target.   As others have said, the dot is just an aiming device.  

The worst solution is to have the dot just big enough and bright enough so it draws your eye when you are focusing on the target, or you move your eye to the target instead of focusing on the dot.  The back and forth from the sights to the target is bad, bad, bad.   The longer you hold the gun up, the greater the temptation to do this.  

Then what happens, is you start doing things with your wrist, and your grip to make that damn dot stay in the middle of the black.....


This way lies madness (and a lot of sixes).

First reality of going to a dot sight is "oh my, I really move around a lot'.
Then you focus on your hold ability.

The focus on the target or focus on the dot is strange to me.

If you focus on the target, how do you see the dot ?
If you focus on the dot, how do you see the target ?

Shooting irons and shooting with a dot are two different things to a point.

Shooting irons for me is focusing on the front sight and the target is somewhat of a blur cause they are on different planes.
The mind cannot focus on two things at once or your eyes.
You have to trust what you are seeing/registering in your mind.

Shooting a dot is focusing on both, kind of hard to explain but the dot and target are on the same plane.

I turn my dot down to the point it is a ghost image onto the target.
I can actually see the dot and the target without shifting my eyes to and fro between dot and target as with irons.
Also wear vermilion colored lenses to enhance the dot.
Truth be known, am I focusing on the dot or the target ?
The target does not move, the dot does but I can see both but maybe I just have accustomed to not seeing or worrying about the wobble/movement ?
I honestly cannot tell you if I am focusing on one or the other cause they just meld together.

I believe everyone see's something different but you need to experiment to see what works for you.

Being comfortable with your hold/aiming area is key to not snatching a shot.
We all move cause we are human, do not worry about your aiming area/wobble, just hold the best you can and controlled trigger /movement will prevail.

Even if you have an 8 ring hold, the odds of hitting the 9 or 10 ring are statistically good if you do not focus on your wobble but trigger manipulation.
Focus on trigger and ignore your wobble/hold.

Look at it this way;
If I have an 8 ring hold and move from 8 to 8 and just concentrate on the trigger, when the shot go's off, the worst is an 8 but if the wobble is moving in the other direction to the other 8, it is most likely going to be a 9 or 10 or an X.

Remember, by the time the brain registers from the eyes when it is time to manipulate the trigger for a perfect shot; that is history; it is long gone; you have already moved away from that what you perceived as the perfect shot alignment due to your movement/wobble area.

I hope I made some sense in what I posted.
A lot of this comes from shooting air and free pistol with of course iron sights.
If you are really focused shooting irons, your wobble/movement is the same, just not as obvious as shooting a red dot.

Clarence

The website listed up above,   "brianzins.com/2010/03/19/aiming-the-dot-sight/"    expired July 16, 2016.   When I tried to go there, nothing works - just a message for the website owner to renew it.

Can this page information be viewed on another website?

These may help:
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/11/10/aiming-the-red-dot-sight/

http://bullseyepistol.com/zinsdot.htm

I mostly use a red dot. But my first clean timed and rapid targets came with metallic sight M41 and M52. What does that mean....no idea. I agree with those that say Canton and Perry are ideal for metallic sights. I can see every detail of my front sights at Canton. Other places they are just black squares. I will say that I just started using sight black.....big difference, much better sight picture.

orpheoet wrote: I will say that I just started using sight black.....big difference, much better sight picture.

Sight Black? Is that a fancy term for my bic lighter? 

They make a black spray on and have carbide lighters for blackening sights. Gets rid of all glare and makes them stand out very nice in almost all lighting conditions.
Jon