First time trying Dot Sight.... Bad idea.

First topic message reminder :

I decided to put this under "fundamentals" but almost put it in "equipment". I tried a dot sight for the first time. Horrible! I shoot a Smith 41 with irons, but for trying a dot I just quickly mounted one on my Ruger MKIII Target. That dot bounces and moves all over the place! I was shooting about on par or a point bellow average at 25 yards. I did not get around to trying it out at 50 yards. The groups were crazy, unorganized, random. Not like my 41. My 41 with irons produces tighter, more consistent groups. I thought dot sights were supposed to be more accurate? 

Tim:H11 wrote:

orpheoet wrote: I will say that I just started using sight black.....big difference, much better sight picture.

Sight Black? Is that a fancy term for my bic lighter? 

cheap and very effective, light a piece of masking tape, the smoke is super black and does a great job

Red dots are god sent for old eyes. My M41 iron sights are difficult for these 74 year old eyes. I need a red dot for them but my old M41. not drilled and tapped for them.

My old 41 wasn't tapped either. It may be one of the simplest to do though. If you have the long barrel A series you drill it for a K frame (#401) weaver mount. Mount costs less then $10.00. They fit the contour perfectly. I only drilled and tapped the holes that went all the way thru the top strap and didn't get near the barrel. You don't need them all for a .22. Just my .02 worth.

Len

"A" with weaver base.

Its simple, good eyes and focus is the key, matters not if its with irons or a dot. Shoot whatever you shoot best, as to dots being better they are only a crutch for those of us who dont have a keen eyesight as we once had. It levels the playing field and keeps shooters in the game longer otherwise only guys with great eyes would win matches. just remember the highest official 2700 score set in 1974 was shot with iron sights and still stands today. My advise save your money and shoot irons as long as you can.

Tim:H11 wrote:I decided to put this under "fundamentals" but almost put it in "equipment". I tried a dot sight for the first time. Horrible! I shoot a Smith 41 with irons, but for trying a dot I just quickly mounted one on my Ruger MKIII Target. That dot bounces and moves all over the place! I was shooting about on par or a point bellow average at 25 yards. I did not get around to trying it out at 50 yards. The groups were crazy, unorganized, random. Not like my 41. My 41 with irons produces tighter, more consistent groups. I thought dot sights were supposed to be more accurate? 

If the sights are mounted correctly, and you got a good sight, if the dot is "bouncing and moves all over", that's what your gun is doing.  Which red dot sight did you buy?  

If you're used to iron sights, it's probably going to take you a while to get used to the red dot sights.

I tried the small, open reflex sight from Matchdot.  It was very easy to acquire the target, but I didn't feel comfortable with it.  Then I tried this one:

http://www.ultradotusa.com/ultradotdist2010_008.htm

For me, it felt much more natural.

This was shooting on a Model 41.  I didn't shoot any better or worse, but with my eyes that needed cataract surgery, the red dot seemed much easier to work with.  I can't say I shot any better with the Matchdot II, but I need to use it some more.

I still need to try one of these on my M52, but there's no hurry.

Oh, and I have the long barrel on my M41, but didn't want to drill holes in it.  Instead, I bought a new barrel from Clarks, but I left on a trip and haven't had time to try it.  When I get things set up, I'll be able to shoot the M41 with both, and see how things compare.

I don't know enough about this to suggest anything, but if you get the Matchdot II, you have a selection of "dot types", sizes, and brightness to select from.  I turned the brightness down, and used the simple "dot".

DavidR wrote:......My advise save your money and shoot irons as long as you can.

I just turned 73 yesterday.  I'm at Aravind eye hospital in India, where I do volunteer work.  I had cataract surgery on my left eye ten days ago.  

After seeing the results, no pun intended, I'd suggest you see an ophthalmologist and get your eyes checked.  For the past several years, my targets have gotten "better", but I reached a point where I don't know how to improve.  I also became aware that while I'm centering the front sight in the rear sight, nothing was anywhere near as clear and sharp as it is now after the surgery.  It used to be a reasonably sharp front sight centered in a more blurry rear sight.  Now, whatever I am looking at is razor sharp - brilliant.  If there was a tiny scratch on the front sight, I would see it.  I'm anxious to see what kind of difference this will make.

(I should add that I have progressive lenses - the plan will be to get glasses configured for the distance from eye to front sight, around 24 inches.)

You think the dot jumps around try a 6X scope.  I use one when I benchrest a pistol when I don't have a solid bench for the ransom rest.  Tried several times to shoot BE with it even a low power my wobble makes it impossible for me to do.

john bickar wrote:You ever seen a sewing machine needle while the sewing machine is running?

That's what my dot looks like

Thats really funny!
Stan

I am using a Bomar Rib on my backup gun and after the first time at the range I honestly questioned why I was using a red dot. 

For me I think the right sight set paired with the right gun could be amazing. 

I had a Benelli MP95 and never shot the red dot better than the iron sights on that gun. 

I have a Nelson with K Sight style irons and it takes practice to get a good score same with my M19.

rich.tullo wrote:.....I honestly questioned why I was using a red dot.....

From what little I've done, and what I've read, I don't think either red dots or iron sights are "better".  What is "better" is the shooter's ability to aim the gun, and this is likely different for all shooters.

For those with "old eyes", the red dot allows them to see where to aim the gun better.  For others, with excellent vision, maybe their accuracy is not limited by how well they can see.  


(The above is only written for target shooting in a brightly lit area, not a dark room.)

Open sights are probably the only way a shooter can learn the difference between what he does to mess up the position of the gun (alignment of the gun parallel to the intended line of flight) versus the wobble induced by holding and supporting the gun with one hand. [See my post in the other thread on trigger finger placement} 

Dots make it almost impossible to separate the causes, but are much easier to see on the target.  Open sights will tell you the gun alignment (front sight / rear sight relationship) without respect to the wobble.  

Learn to keep the sights centered while the gun stays in the normal wobble area with open sights.  Then learn to shoot the gun while the wobble is getting smaller (open sights or dot).  You know you're on the way when you can see the front sight lift out of the rear sight notch when the gun fires. That is a primary indicator of progress. 

Problem is that as we get older, its much harder to see the front sight without a lot of work and extra equipment.  Plus, you don't think you have to fight that distraction of looking at the target so much using a dot (but you really do, pick one, target or dot and be consistent).  And, for me, the physical act of seeing with the proper level of focus on the front sight seems to use up a lot more energy than using a dot for a 2700 one day agg match.  (Probably means I need to focus on my chosen point more, but the dot just seems to stay in focus easier.) 

I will say that open sights seem to be accurate (and consistent) for me over the short term; and dots are much easier for me to shoot for a whole match (day). 

And one final note, as I made in another post.  I don't aim the gun.  I do my best to keep the gun aligned with the intended line of flight and attempt to complete the trigger press while the wobble is getting smaller or is consistent.  "Aiming" at some point tended to induce snatching, flinching and inconsistent trigger operation for me.  

Yes, I got some great shots off when I was aiming, but I was not consistent and had more flyers that really ate up the points.  So, I don't really "aim" as much as watch the wobble and keep the gun parallel to the intended line of flight. 

Now, if I could only do all that stuff consistently.....

CR

CR10X wrote:........You know you're on the way when you can see the front sight lift out of the rear sight notch when the gun fires.........

Maybe you can elaborate on this.  I've read many times that a person "should" do this, but on a larger capacity gun, at least for me, I can never see this as the entire front of the gun is lifting up due to recoil.

Maybe my eyes are just too slow or something....   Do you know a way to teach someone how to see this?  Maybe I just need to try it with a .22 and see if I can notice it.

We are supposed to be able to "call our shots" based on where the sights were aligned at the exact time the gun fired, but for me this has been a struggle.  I figure that if I can learn this, I can then apply it to all my shooting, but.....

(Maybe I will see this better once I'm back home, shooting with my new-yet-to-be-bought glasses post-cataract-surgery.)

A lot of people blink when the gun fires. It's human nature, but you need to work on it to stop it.  You do that by getting used to having a gun discharge near you.  So shoot a lot and also focus on keeping your eyes open.  When you see the glint of the case being ejected you know your eyes were open.  When your eyes are open you'll see the front sight do all kinds of things during recoil.  Then the diagnostics get much easier.

OK, great question.  Paraphrasing a little - "How can I see the front sight lift in recoil when all I see is the entire front of the gun lifting?"

Well, we could get into lot of research and discussion here on "lizard brain" and how our vision and brain are wired to notice motion; how some people may have a faster vision processing rate then others, how what we see is actually in the past, reaction times and human physiology.

Just as great baseball hitters can see the spin of the ball, great shooters (both precision, action and others) spend a lot of time training the see what needs to be seen.  Now seems like a very obvious statement, but it may not be that obvious (and actually relates to another thread on how long shooters hold before releasing the shot). 

The first thing is if we're seeing the front of the gun, then that would seem to indicate that we're not actually focusing only on the front sight.  And I mean just the front sight, the crispness of the top edge, the balance of the two bars of white on either side, the fine serrations or little imperfection or piece of dust, on the front sight.

The target is just a suggestion, more of a distraction actually.  The rear sight is simply 3/4 of an aperture through which we see the front sight.  We should be able to see, dry firing or live firing, minor and minute (or sometimes major) changes in the relationship of the front sight in the rear as our finger presses on the trigger, as we inadvertently change pressure in any fingers, as our arm fatigues, etc.   However, the relationship of the front and rear sights should remain constant and consistent, no matter where the wobble appears on the target. 

So fight the urge the look at the target, if you are actually looking at the front sight, you will see its position in relation to the rear sight (and be training to keep it centered).  The target will simply be a backdrop or the background and does NOT require pinpoint vision or clarity to provide a reference to call the shot. The relationship of the front and rear sight is 99.9% of where the shot will go.  EVERYTHING of importance happens AT THE GUN. We have to train on believing that so we can remain focused on the front sight.  

So, generally if we're only seeing the front of the gun, we're probably not really looking at the front sight, but somewhere in-between the front sight and the target.

And you really have to have excellent vision at the front sight distance to really see all this stuff.  Fuzzy is your enemy. If you cannot see the 1/1000 of an inch difference in the relationship, bars of white, level at the top, its hard to train to keep the front sight in the right place.  The target can be very blurry, that's OK as long a you can tell which one is yours.  Think about rifle shooters at 600 yards and beyond with open sights, they can't even see the bull sometimes, their just holding on something they can see and still dropping rounds in the 10 ring. 

Dryfiring will help us see the front sight and train to do so without the distraction of a small explosion happening in our hands.  Wear plugs and muffs, eye protection, hat, etc. to reduce distractions.  

Hope this helps.  
CR

I'm working on "calling" after my shot.   I am early in it, but can do it better at dry fire and air pistol than 22 or 45 - as Cecil points out due to less distraction.  I am aware that if I can tell when the pistol is on target that is the same whether it is before or immediately after the trigger pull.  It is mental training for me (not visual) to make sure the bang/flash/sudden movement doesn't "overwrite" what I am striving to remember.  As a shooter of less than 18 months, that is taking a lot of work.

I know calling is hard to learn, but it seems so much easier than what the ASL translators (or any other translator) do which is to constantly listen to someone else while repeating what they hear in a different language.

CR10X wrote:......And you really have to have excellent vision at the front sight distance to really see all this stuff.  Fuzzy is your enemy. If you cannot see the 1/1000 of an inch difference in the relationship, bars of white, level at the top, its hard to train to keep the front sight in the right place.  The target can be very blurry, that's OK as long a you can tell which one is yours.......

I can't say that this is/was my only problem, but with the cataract that just got removed, the sharpest things I could/can see were blurry.  I've read where you should see every scratch and mark on the front sight clearly, so well you can recognize it is YOUR front sight on your gun.  Until now, that was impossible.

I'm right-eye dominant, and neither eye could really see the detail in the front sight.  My left eye cataract was worse than my right eye, so the left eye had the cataract removed 16 days ago.  With my left eye now, and a temporary lens from a pair of progressive glasses, everything is now so sharp that I expect I could see a speck of dust on the front sight.  ....with my left eye.

Bottom line for me, when I get home, until I get the surgery on my right eye, I'll be shooting with my left eye.

-----------------------------------------

I suspected what you wrote, but didn't know how important that was.  I agree with what you wrote.  The tiniest bit of error in where the front sight is, gets magnified by the time the bullet hits the target.  I got down to a 3" grouping at 15 yards with a 1911, which is one inch worse than I could do with a revolver two years ago.  I got a prescription for new glasses for 24 inches between my eye and the front sight.  Maybe that will help.

CR: "EVERYTHING of importance happens AT THE GUN. We have to train on believing that so we can remain focused on the front sight."

That's another great line to go with Joe White's:  "....keep the sights aligned before, during and after the fall of the hammer."


 I have believed in these for years.  One time years ago I found ideal lighting when my eyes were young, and my physical condition was also younger.  I shot my 38 OMM on a 50yd target XXXXXXXX89, in that order.  Guess where I lost concentration, and failed to follow the above concepts.

I have had eye surgery 3 times and the forth one next Thursday.  Cataracts in both eyes and a cornea transplant in the right eye and the same in the left Thursday.  Even with all that my red dot is not nice and round and crisp because the astigmatism is  still there.  I can shoot iron sights but find a dot is easier to see.  I guess that I need to focus on the dot like you are saying to do with the front sight.  Don

I need to use dot sights because my eyes don't work well with iron sights. The only exception would be if I would use a peep sight hooked to my glasses. Bushnell trophy will give you red or green with a selection of images. Dry fire dry fire dry fire. The bounce you see is the same with iron sights.

Lots have been said as to a scope helping shooters. After Perry was won a few times with a Red Dot mounted Pistol (forgot how to spell the mans name) just about everyone mounted Red Dot sights. Soon there was discussions as to weather the Red Dot or Scope gave the shooter an advantage. NRA started to survey the issue, everyone at all the matches were asked what type sights they were using. After a bit the NRA claimed that the Red Dots and Scopes did not offer an advantage but did help older shooters so they were allowed to continue being used. I might add that is was only a short time afterward that the High Master Class was Added.
 At that time the consensus was to look at the dot. However that has changed. As the father of Adam I have met quite a few of the top shooters at Camp Perry and other Private and public events. Looking at the target is what I'm told is the correct way by all of those shooters. It is explained by example, Dart throwers don't look at the dart, Basketball shooters don't look at the ball nor do Pitchers. Back when sight alignment was critical when using Iron sights (still is by anyone still using Iron) focusing on the front sight was important!
 I've also found a plus from looking at the target in that the Star Burst, Coma or figure 8 appearance of many Red Dots is not as bothersome as when focusing on the Dot. However if you prefer looking/focusing on the dot then do so but don't do both as was suggested. The result will be the same as with doing the same with Irons.

In the last "shooting sports magazine, Brian Z. talks about his first clean at 50.

 "I then proceeded to shoot my first ever 100 long-line with my .22LR. Heck, it was my first 100 long-line period. The team captain called everyone into a circle and asked me to tell them what I did during that string and if I learned something. I told him I turned my dot down and looked at the target as opposed to the front sight. He about had a fit, but some learning had occurred, and not just for me. From that moment on, it became not so uncommon for Marines to look at the target."

The whole thing is a good read, here is the link: Precision pistol clinic II

My second-best Slow Fire was shot with a nearly-dead battery in my Ultradot. I was so excited to shoot my freshly-completed lower that I forgot to check before I left, and then I spent all morning and most of the afternoon on "club work", bringing in a new wave of members. I figured I could avoid putting one over the berm even without a functioning sight, so I just had at it and enjoyed the thing.

Scoped it and scored it after the first 10--95, on a B-2 at 50 feet.

My best-so-far, a 96, was shot after fishing for 6 hours in the morning, packing up, and driving 75 miles home to shoot the club match.

I've been really focusing on three things lately (aborting bad shots, focusing hard on the target, and holding the trigger fully to the rear after an unbroken trigger pull), and haven't managed to shoot under a 90 since. Time Fired is hit-or-miss, but Rapids have all been 96-98.

I am blessed with excellent vision; still, at 67+, hovering between 20/15 and 20/20; I am an anomaly. The rest of my body is well used and abused, with lots of metal (my former dirt bike/cafe racer motorcycle addiction...). Even with great vision, I need 0.75 diopter shooting glasses (from too many years spent staring at fixed distance computer screens or, I think, shrinking arm length).

I can still shoot iron sights well, maybe even very well. But I believe I have the ability to shoot with greater precision with red dots (quality red dots like Matchdot II or Amipoint with 2 moa dot), especially at 50 yards. Upon first use, they do bounce around, but with practice (especially dry firing), you can quickly learn to settle them down or in military parlance, achieve a minimum arc of movement. As the eyes of most shooters age, corrected vision is necessary. Red dots resolve the issue of sharp front sight: very fuzzy target by putting the sighting dot in the same flat field as the target. Your mind has the ability to jump instantaneously between the dot and the target.

Red dots enhance my ability to call shots and decipher shooting errors; even subtile jerks are clearly evident when dry firing against a white wall, enabling me to distinguish between deft triggering and other triggering. Like any of our gear, they are tools, preferred by some and eschewed by others. A dedicated iron shooter that used to attend our local match in Fort White called them "bubble gum machines." At first I didn't know what the hell he was babbling about (what gum? where?). dipnet

This thread haunts me. Every once in a while it pops back up. In the beginning the dot sight was a big change and hard to trust with all the noticeable movement. In time with practice or training the movement lessens some. And you begin to feel like this is the new normal. The dot does allow you to call shots easier I think. It certainly helps you see mistakes when they're made as well as what a good shot looks like. Currently I've gone to a dot sight on a Nelson and my 45 will be a dot sight too when it's finished. 

Thanks all!

I have a question.

I got back from India several weeks ago, having had the cataract in my right eye corrected.  Since my eyes can no longer focus, I had a pair of glasses made with a prescription for the distance to the front sight.  For the past few weeks I've been dry firing every day, and will get to the range in the next few days.

I also got my Clark's barrel for my M-41, and am ready to mount my Matchdot II on it, allowing me to swap back and forth between iron sights and red dot sights.

My question is, I have always been told that with red dot sights, you watch the dot, and from a previous experience, I know how the red dot is quivering all over.  I don't expect it to do anything differently now.  Reading this thread again completely, I'm wondering whether it's better to watch "the dot" or to watch the target.  

For me, shooting iron sights, my focus is completely on the front sight.  I don't see the sight move, but it feels as if I'm working to keep the gap on either side of the front sight equal, along with the height.  I don't need to think about it - from all of Keith Sanderson's talks on holding drills, I've gotten to where that seems to take care of itself automatically.  (For a total of an hour every day, I'm going back and forth between holding the gun steady for one minute, then resting for two minutes, and for half of that time I'm wearing weights on my wrists.)

My question - is it better to keep one's concentration on the target, or on the dot as it moves around?  Since I know it's not a good idea to try to "snatch" a shot as the dot happens to move over the target, watching the target sounds like a better idea to me.  Advice?