Marvel vs. Nelson .22 Conversion Slide

Just got my Sig Traditional Match Elite in 38 Super. I plan on getting a really nice 2.5+ pound trigger job on it and using it for the .22 leg using one of these 2 conversions as well as the CF leg as long as I can get an accurate load worked up. I'm leaning toward the Nelson due to price, additional mag included and great customer service however I'm still not 100% locked in yet. I installed my shooting buddies Marvel today and it fit fine on the Sig. I know another guy with a Nelson that I will test on it for fit. 

Assuming both fit what are the pro's and con's of either?

Though I have not needed support for either of my Marvel units so far, the Marvel folks are at Camp Perry every year supporting their customers.

Is 38 super a good bullseye worthy caliber? Forgive me I'm uneducated on who's who that may be using it or not. The idea of having one and using a conversion on it is a nice idea for the 22 and center fire agg. Might save space on the gun box too.

Well Tim take a look at my 38 super threads in the general discussion. There are a couple guys that had 38 super wad guns built, best target I saw was 10 shots in a 1.25" x 1.25" group at 50 yards at just over 700 fps, pretty awesome in my book. 

Now as to what my Sig will do is another question. I am about to get a top notch trigger job with all new ignition components and will have a match barrel bushing out in. At my skill level I would be happy with a 2" group at 25. Worst case is I'll have a really nice frame to use a 22 conversion, I sold my 41 to get the Sig.

To be honest what I want is a 38 special 1911 wad gun but the only options are super old Colts or getting a $3000 custom gun made. Going with the 38 super made sense at this point, in a few years when I get my house paid off I may drop the cash on a custom 38 special gun.

The Nelsons are 2 generations more refined than the Marvel's. I appreciate the Marvel folks, but the Nelson is still better.

I have both the Marvel and the Nelson, as Rob said the Nelson has all of Bob's latest refinements.  Both the optic and iron sight ribs on the Nelson are steel which makes the weight closer to my 45.  Either conversion will do the job but I'd buy another Nelson.  Service from both companies is excellent.

- Dave

My advantage arms went all of 2015 without an Alibi.

I couldn't go 90 rounds with my Marvel.

Sounds like you need a new gunsmith Rob ;p)

I checked the website and saw two conversions. One with open irons and one with a rail for a dot sight. If I wanted is there an option where I could get one with both?

Also how do these Nelson conversions compare to a smith 41? I shoot a 41 now but the conversion idea is neat. Do you shooters who have them actually convert during a match or use a dedicated frame?

Tim:H11 wrote:I checked the website and saw two conversions. One with open irons and one with a rail for a dot sight. If I wanted is there an option where I could get one with both?

Also how do these Nelson conversions compare to a smith 41? I shoot a 41 now but the conversion idea is neat. Do you shooters who have them actually convert during a match or use a dedicated frame?

I like the KISS principle. I keep my Marvel on a dedicated lower.

I convert mine during a match. Even during league where it's 30 rounds with each gun. The changeover it that easy.

About irons vs dots: I have 2 conversions, one with irons and one for dot.

It's really easy to change the ribs over and they keep zero well.

I've never shot a S&W 41, but I've never seen a stock 41 run as good as my Advantage arms conversion.

Alibis suck.

I have a dedicated lower, but you don't need one because change over is no issue.  

If you decide to go the changeover route I'd suggest putting a 2 piece full length guide rod in your 45 it makes the change over even easier because you won't have to worry about the recoil spring taking off on you.

+1 on having 2 conversions, 1 iron & 1 dot.

- Dave

Tim:H11 wrote:I checked the website and saw two conversions. One with open irons and one with a rail for a dot sight. If I wanted is there an option where I could get one with both?

Also how do these Nelson conversions compare to a smith 41? I shoot a 41 now but the conversion idea is neat. Do you shooters who have them actually convert during a match or use a dedicated frame?

If you order a Nelson Conversion with iron sights you can also order a weaver rail or another barrel with rail (or vice versa). Since the screws to swap rails would be under the red dot I have two conversions, an iron sight conversion for outdoor competition and a red dot for indoor league. I use a dedicated lower with about a 3 pound trigger, but swapping isn't a big deal.

The machining on my Nelson Conversions (and Hammerli X-esse) is much better than on my 1978 vintage S&W M41. It is a comparison between modern machining techniques/finishes/materials and 1940's vintage machining/finishes/materials. The modern pistols have good bolt faces, good extractors and good barrels, they just don't have that deep polished blueing. Also, with a Nelson Conversion you can easily swap recoil springs, mainsprings and hammers to adjust for any ammo you want to shoot with. Due to reliability I don't use my M41 for competition even though I like the balance and handling.

Sa-tevp wrote: I like the balance and handling.

A 41 that has been set up and tuned is a very formidable piece.. It's right up there with a Hammerli.. I agree, that out of the box , from the factory, there is much to be desired.
Although I have done much successful work on conversions,   I am not over taken with conversion enthusiasm.   KART is the best conversion I 've worked on.

I take it that Nelson does not offer a combo rib like Marvel ?
(Picatinny rail/ adjustable iron sights)

Clarence

This is a very early Marvel Precision I had.  Still have the sights and with a little work it fits on a Nelson.  Rings are Leupold.  CPC did the grooves for me.

Jerry Keefer wrote:

Sa-tevp wrote: I like the balance and handling.

A 41 that has been set up and tuned is a very formidable piece.. It's right up there with a Hammerli.. I agree, that out of the box , from the factory, there is much to be desired.
Although I have done much successful work on conversions,   I am not over taken with conversion enthusiasm.   KART is the best conversion I 've worked on.

I agree with Jerry hands down.  I am supposed to be getting a few Dworak (Kart copy) conversions this month.  If that does in fact happen I'll post that info here.  41's when given some love and attention are an excellent choice.  But they do usually require some attention to give their maximum potential.

I might agree also if my 41s did not give me slide bite.  In fact I would take a 41 over a 208 because of the single stage trigger.  Has anybody ever figured out a beavertail like addition to the 41 similar to the one I did on my 208 and CMM has made one.

Jack H wrote:I might agree also if my 41s did not give me slide bite.  In fact I would take a 41 over a 208 because of the single stage trigger.  Has anybody ever figured out a beavertail like addition to the 41 similar to the one I did on my 208 and CMM has made one.

Jack, I just pulled a 41 out of the safe to check my hand and slide clearance.. I am small stature with a big hand, but the slide clears my hand with much room to spare..You really have a big hand..!! I am sure something could be fabricated.. Just a have to find that smith.. On FB Custom Guns, some one recently showed a Browning with a welded/fabricated /extended section. There is also a picture of a Hall of Fame plaque on FB of Hershel Anderson holding a 7 inch 41..He liked them obviously..

Jerry
I have had dreams of machining a flat square notch under the rearmost point of the frame.  (But I just can't bring myself to cut on a 41 frame.)  Then fit a beavertail piece into a squared notch with one screw to hold it, and shape it to fit the hand.  I assume there is enough metal below the cocking indicator for threads.

I made such a piece for 208s that works perfectly attached to the rear sight screw location.  And it's better than the one CMM sells.  I wonder if they got their idea from my posts of the 208...

Jack, Larry Carter (Larry's Guns) makes a press on beavertail for the Trailside / Exsse models out of aluminum.  That might be an option for you as well.  Then you wouldn't have to make any permanent modifications to your 41 receiver.

kc.crawford.7 wrote:

Jerry Keefer wrote:

Sa-tevp wrote: I like the balance and handling.

A 41 that has been set up and tuned is a very formidable piece.. It's right up there with a Hammerli.. I agree, that out of the box , from the factory, there is much to be desired.
Although I have done much successful work on conversions,   I am not over taken with conversion enthusiasm.   KART is the best conversion I 've worked on.

I agree with Jerry hands down.  I am supposed to be getting a few Dworak (Kart copy) conversions this month.  If that does in fact happen I'll post that info here.  41's when given some love and attention are an excellent choice.  But they do usually require some attention to give their maximum potential.

KARTS
Here's a Marvel late model extractor.. 3/32 nds.. Thicker and better than the early thin extractors. Retro fitted to the KART slide, doing away with the S&W 41 style extractor which had a high failure rate and not as effective as a pinned/pivoting extractor.



The stock extractor can be seen in this picture..

I bought a spare extractor from Marvel.  They changed dimensions at some point in the manufacture (went thicker).  They had me measure the thickness of mine so they could send me the correct one.

Are there any specific requirements for trigger weight on each stage? 

FWIW - IMO 38 Super might be a challenging caliber for Bullseye.  Historically it was designed to enhance 9mm (and 38ACP) performance, and 1200fps is pretty much a starting velocity.  So dropping velocity down to mitigate recoil would be a bit of work from both load development stand point and gun functionality stand point.  In testing done by my friend and I, lowest velocity and adequate accuracy load was with 158gr Magtech JSP on top of 5.2 gr of LongShot - 978fps.
AP

PhotoEscape wrote:Are there any specific requirements for trigger weight on each stage? 

FWIW - IMO 38 Super might be a challenging caliber for Bullseye.  Historically it was designed to enhance 9mm (and 38ACP) performance, and 1200fps is pretty much a starting velocity.  So dropping velocity down to mitigate recoil would be a bit of work from both load development stand point and gun functionality stand point.  In testing done by my friend and I, lowest velocity and adequate accuracy load was with 158gr Magtech JSP on top of 5.2 gr of LongShot - 978fps.
AP

Running soft loads on a purpose built 38 Super bullseye gun is very straight forward.  KC built one for me, frame mounted optic, 6" barrel with a 1-10 twist.  My current load is 2.8 of WST under a 147gr Dardus or Magnus lead Flat Point Bevel Base.  It groups under 1.5" and shoots almost as soft as my model 52.  There are several others with .38 Supers getting the same results with a light loaded 126gr SWC.
- Dave