New S&W Victory .22LR

First topic message reminder :

S&W's new .22LR target pistol - http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_804153_-1_757752_757751_image

The website doesn't show the match grade barrels already available for it.  Looks like it might be a good entry level pistol for BE.

I still like the 22A's. Mine shot better out of the box then my Mark III after doing a bunch of work to it. They (mine anyhow) has a roll trigger that feels like a it lets off as you pull on the trigger then breaks crisp. Oxymoron, I know. But that is what it feels like.

Len


Practice session with the soft grips.

Rob Kovach wrote:I would not recommend Ruger right now.  I've been seeing some really bad QC problems lately.

Agreed based on my recent 22/45 Mk III purchase.  I need to have a gunsmith fix it.

Ruger is currently hyping a 2 Million Gun push. The last time they did this--the 1 Million Gun push--they sent out all kinds of lemons.

Hi, someone will buy one, and shoot bullseye matches as is, using fiber optic sights and the

stock trigger. Yet, there may be someone else, that will buy one(seen them sell for $350),

at MSRP of $409, and then buy the $300 aftermarket barrel and not realize they can

buy an excellent condition HS Victor or Trophy for the same $$$.  The HS choices

are superior BE pistols; that the new S&W 22 can never be, without spending hundreds

of dollars more for proper open sights and appropriate trigger work, in addition to the "Match Barrel". 


Now, having tossed out the doom and gloom,  I see nothing wrong with there being

another pistol choice , in stock configuration, for entry level Bullseye fun.

Tony

Since were talking about alternate entry level .22s has anyone handled one of these pistols made in Germany. It is a nice looking entry level .22. But, even more important would be if it is totally 1911 lower. You could throw away the top rail and have a dedicated lower for a decent price. 249.99
Review:  http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/03/joe-grine/gun-review-german-sport-guns-gsg-1911-22/



http://www.cdnnsports.com/gsg-1911-target-22lr-5-rail-target-grips-1-10.html?utm_source=CDNN+Sports+Email+Specials+List&utm_campaign=11a127d39d-CDNN+Special+1-27-16+Guns&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_7a83adbc4c-11a127d39d-18997617#.Vqjr0ZVFCM8

tonyg wrote:Hi, someone will buy one, and shoot bullseye matches as is, using fiber optic sights and the
stock trigger. Yet, there may be someone else, that will buy one(seen them sell for $350),
at MSRP of $409, and then buy the $300 aftermarket barrel and not realize they can
buy an excellent condition HS Victor or Trophy for the same $$$.  The HS choices
are superior BE pistols; that the new S&W 22 can never be, without spending hundreds
of dollars more for proper open sights and appropriate trigger work, in addition to the "Match Barrel".
Now, having tossed out the doom and gloom,  I see nothing wrong with there being
another pistol choice , in stock configuration, for entry level Bullseye fun.

Tony

Agreed. I actually know a guy who has three Rugers loaded with VQ parts, but he'd scoff at the idea of buying a Model 41 (although he does own a High Standard he doesn't compete with). That said, there are a lot of tune-ups that can be done on the Rugers for cheap. The rear sight tabs are cheap and interchangeable, and the front sights are interchangeable between models with the same barrel diameter. The trigger can be improved with a simple Mk II hammer bushing. And, looking back on my time competing with the Ruger, that's about where I'd stop.

I also feel that, while we're discussing what constitutes entry-level, magazine price should be considered. I personally would feel under-equipped with anything less than four magazines, and really I prefer having six. With $50 magazines, that's another $100-$200. Something to consider, especially on the High Standards. In a similar vein, I think that a drilled and tapped receiver is essential, for when the neophyte shooter inevitably decides to try out a red dot.

The SW22 seems to tick those boxes. S&W lists the magazines at $32 on their website, so I'd wager that once the pistol is established we'll see street prices around that of the Ruger's (which are listed at $29).

Rob Kovach wrote:I would not recommend Ruger right now.  I've been seeing some really bad QC problems lately.

Interesting, Then I would go with a nice used Buck Mark to start, not much can go wrong with them. And you don't need to invest in a trigger jib because you just have to flip the sear spring and you have a decent 3 pound trigger. I just wish someone made better barrels for them TACSol Good but too light.

I managed to find a SW22 on line in the 4000 S/N range.  Shoots SV very well.  Wife - also into bullseye - hit our 50 foot outdoor target in the cold every time and decided she was to have one too.  Gun show provided same in 1000 S/N range.  Her pistol has a tight chamber and extractor can not extract Norma Tac-22 ammo that works fine in my SW22 and in other target pistols.  Had too short a time at indoor range, but her pistol makes very little patterns with CCI SV and some old Eley.  My pistol liked TAC-22 and CCI SV and Eley, but really did not like Geco RIFLE.  Needs to be fired a lot more.

Unlike our 22As, and Buckmarks, the SW22s are trivial to clean.  Have a Klien T type Allan wrench in 1/8 inch to make working the one screw more easy (at about $2.50)  Have light weight barrels on order.  One does need to check the screw periodically.  With one empty mag, I measured a weight of 1052.0 grams.  With special glasses that focus close, the fiber sights work very well. 

Adding red-dot sight will be very easy.  On 22A one needs a 4mm round file to cut a proper notch. 

I have no understanding at all about comments about how a target firearm looks.  Do not think I will live long enough to begin to understand.  All that I care about is: can I rack it? does it fit me (or can it be made to fit me)? does it make smaller groups than I am capable of holding?  is the trigger light and consistent?   can it be cleaned without pain and excessive effort?  can I mount a red-dot sight?  My 208s does just satisfy and the SW22 looks as if it may prove to satisfy too.  Mac up North

Shot my new SW22 today. I'm new to bullseye, but it felt nice in my hands. Trying to get used to red dot optics at the same time creates a challenge. So is anyone making target grips for it yet? How important are target grips for precision pistol?

I was with Dan tonite and that Smith & Wesson sure can shoot!  I started out with a Ruger just a few years ago and this SW has a much nicer trigger.  Almost no creep and breaks nice.

Chip

Dear Dan:  Welcome to Bullseye.  Even if you have young eyes, you do want to use a red-dot sight.  Many find that keeping both eyes open helps.  I prefer to use an ocluder (sp?) on the "other" eye - it makes sure that the amount of light going to both eyes is about the same.  As everyone has been telling you: you need to follow the dot and not the bull.  . . . and practice.  What sight are you using? 

Do tell us what ammo you have used.  For Bullseye (and to reduce battering of the pistol) standard-velocity (SV) ammo tends to be used.  Not easy to find sometimes.  CCI SV is very popular and tends to be a good performer.  Several on-line stores have Norma TAC22 available that is a SV round.  Finding SV continues to be an issue.

Good idea to have 1/8 inch wrench at hand as the screw can decide to become loose.  I check the screw on a regular schedule.
I measured the required trigger force to be 4.5 pounds-force (20 N). 

Providing your results - those of one starting out with a good quality pistol and red-dot sight - will be interesting to others.
You will be able to enjoy Bullseye for many years.     Mac

Dear Dan and Chip:   Forgot to mention:  I have yet to find "improved" grips.  Improved grips will become available - I am sure.  Wrap-around grips, in my opinion, can help to keep grip constant and slightly more comfortable. 

The SW22 has been "out" for a very short time.  It will take time for enhancements to appear.  The Ruger has been available about 50 years so lots of (needed) enhancements exist for that platform.  Boy, am I glad not to need to clean a Ruger.  Only a SIG P320 is more easy to deal with than SW22.

Details of your adventure ?       Mac up North

This style grip might work from Dick Horton.

On first inspection there were a couple of things that I was not fond of. The scope rail is made of plastic and only has one screw. The other side is held in place by sliding the rail into a slotted notch. There is some free play and you can muscle the rail back and forth. That might be a spot for bondo or some other filler to take up the play. I also was not fond of the composition of the trigger. It feels like some kind of polymer. The grips feel nice but I will be on the look out for wood grips that probably won't be long in coming out. I can definitely say that the 22A magazines will not fit in this pistol. I had to give it a try. The 22A mag release is in the front of the grip and this mag release is right where it is supposed to be. I never pinched my hand playing with the slide even when I tried to do it on purpose. My fingers might be too big to get into the pinchy parts. All in all the pistol feels good in the hand. I will see how it does in a match before I even think about up-grading it. Oh, prepare to be surprised by how hard it is to take the screw out the first time. They must have some sort of Giant installing them.

Dear Old Master:  Several will be most interested in what you find to be ammo sensitivity and accuracy of your SW22.  Details.  S/N range?  Did the rail actually shift in use?  . . . .   What effect on performance did you find linked to the composition of the trigger?

I forgot to mention that I too found 22A mags do not fit into SW22.  Shame as we have been using 22A in bowling-pin competition.  But then the mags for PPS M1 apparently do not fit into PPS M2 - same sort of change to the mag release.

What I have found is a need to use the slide lock as a slide-release (much as Kahr's seem to need).  Removal of the mag trigger block (a spring loaded rod inside of grip that is easy to remove) might make a difference.  Fortunately, unlike other mag trigger blocks, this one does not affect the trigger's feel.

It will be interesting to read about the experiences of others.  Regards from cold Michigan

To answer all of your questions. Serial number in the 8300s. The rail actually shifts when I push on it with my thumb. It makes a very audible click as I push it one direction and clicks again as I move it in the other direction. The total movement is about .015". I worry about the composition of the trigger because of the over travel screw threaded into it. I have never had much luck with screws in plastic. As far as testing ammo goes I am going to work on the trigger before I take it to the range. The trigger breaks past my calibrated weights capability. It is just over 78oz as best as I can measure. The hammer can also use the benefit of a little tinkering. I broke two snap caps getting the trigger weight. I can see some easy spots to tinker with that will help. My wife scored me a bunch of CCISV so I will feed it a steady diet of that ammo. And on the final note. Regards to you down there in Michigan. I guess technically if you live on Mackinac Island you could be further North.

Len

Update: If I had a shoe tag I would mark this pistol NRTS and send it back to depot for repair. The trigger spring which is not adjustable measures 38oz before it makes contact with the sear. The sear could be cleaned up to remove a little creep but not worth doing until the hammer spring can be replaced. The hammer spring, also not adjustable is twice as strong as it needs to be (destroyed snap cap every time) putting a large drag on the sear. Instead of making barrels for this pistol Volquartsen needs to make spring kits. I don't even want to pull the trigger on a live round until something comes out after market to get the trigger weight down. At almost 5 lbs that is not a bullseye trigger. If I knew how to decrease the power of a coiled spring without ruining it this could be adjusted. But I don't.

Len

Dear Len:    I regret your difficulties. 
In the matter of snap-caps:  I have been using "Ribbed Plastic Anchors" - Hillman part number 370326.  They are marked "4-6-8 x 7/8"."
They last a lot longer than snap-caps and cost less than six cents each.  Amazon sells them.

Michigan and North:  no one died and left us a place on the Island - we are in the East Central part of the LP.  Apparently you are father north.  Last day we had a lot of snow. 

Today I replaced the rear iron sight on my wife's SW22 with rail and a red-dot sight.  Did not find any tendency for the rail to wiggle.  Need to add a 3/32 wrench to the kit (along with the T 1/8 wrench) so that the rail screw can be tested.  Expected the light barrels today, but the trucks gave up about noon because of the weather. 

With Internet prices near 340, sales are bound to be good.  In turn, the usual suspects (and perhaps some new ones) will be providing enhancement parts.  Eventually your SW22 and ours will be where we wish them to be.  A few nights ago, a high master fired my SW22 with iron sights using TAC22 and CCI SV.  At 50 feet inside (it is Michigan) the CCI was best by a little and both made small groups.  Expect things to be better when using red-dot sight.  Always keen to hear your progress - Mac

I may have posted that update when I was a little bummed out by my inability to work on the trigger. I am sure there will be people coming out with new products for this pistol. I noticed how easy it would be to remove the magazine safety and how it does not effect the trigger weight. I forgot to remind you (or anyone) that removing that safety would make it not legal for NRA matches. It will be interesting to see what they come up with to decrease the trigger weight. The trigger spring actually anchors in the transfer bar both holding it up (unless mag safety or safety is holding it down) and pulls the transfer bar forward as pressure is applied to the trigger. A major reduction in the trigger spring might not hold the transfer bar up high enough to clear the notch it is held in by the safety or the mag safety. I see no reason the hammer spring needs to be so strong and could probably be reduced without any problems. I like the balance of this pistol and it holds steady in my hand but for now it is going to be a safe queen.

Len      ( Sunshine here today. I had to wear my aviator glasses to make it thru my crab gear)

I got a Victory from Cabelas in Springfield a few days ago.  Had a come-on price too.  Shot it one time so far.  Roddy shot it too.  I found it very reliable cycling 5 or 10 shots except with weaker SK type ammo.  I shot dot only and did not see any slop in the rail. Rail slop would be easy to fix anyway.   The trigger is heavy but real good otherwise.  Good trumps weight anyday.  The plastic grip is a bit slick, but it's size and shape is good.  I might get another shoot time this weekend.

I purchased one last week on impulse, 320+shipping on gunbroker. Trigger is about 3.25 lbs but has a mile of very smooth travel. It's actually like a very long roll trigger. After disassembling, those familiar with Buckmarks will see the similarities in the bolt, safety, bolt lock, and mag release. Those familiar with ruger will understand the trigger, transfer bar and hammer sear arrangement. It looks like SW took features from both and integrated them in just a bit different way. The optic rail that came with mine showed no noticeable play when installed, but I've not mouted a dot in it yet.

My wife thought the grip was really small, but she is 6'tall and has long fingers. It shoots ok, but the fiber sights are really annoying to those use to a single red dot or black everywhere.

Initial impressions are very good I'll update once I have had a chance to shoot it a bit more.

For those of you who are doing ammo test, what are your opinions of shooting high velocity ammo? I have a Pardini and High Standard for bullseye but can't or won't shoot high velocity in them for obvious reasons. With 22lr being hard to find and a fairly good stock of mini mags etc, I bought a Ruger 22/45 lite and can't hit the broad side of a barn. Just too light weight for me. Looking for a replacement but would like to get away from the Ruger. Almost bought a Buckmark then this gun came out. I had a chance to finger one of these and it felt a lot like my High Standard except for the grips and loved the way it takes down. Primary use would be plink steel with friends and walking in the woods. Thanks

The heavy snow has delayed things by several days.  The Light Weight (LW) barrels from Volquartsen arrived with several day's delay because delivery trucks could not get through snow.  Volquartsen people with whom I have dealt seen first rate.
Details:  One LW barrel is 236.6 grams and the other is 235.6 grams.  The original barrel with front sight is 341.2 grams.
Length from breach to muzzle is about 173 mm - the last about 22 mm is not rifled.
Have yet to fire either SW22 - just too much cold and snow to use our range or to drive the few miles to an indoor range.  (So the LW barrel reduces weight about 4 oz. and moves the center of gravity backwards a little - I think it feels better with the LW barrel)
More details when I have them.

I could not bear shooting anything but standard velocity (SV) 22LR in a target pistol.  However, the manual only speaks against hyper-velocity.  See how it works.

Manual has the wrong size for wrench needed to change the "iron" sight to P. rail.

Mac

At long last the temp. was above 50 F and the SW22s with LW barrels were fired outdoors.  Put very inexpensive red-dot sights on both SW22s that (no surprise) were difficult to adjust.  Best that can be said is that absolutely no functioning issues occurred with CCI SV and Geco RIFLE (same head stamp as Norma and same velocity as Eley).  Accuracy was sort-of tested on steel plate at 50 feet, but sundown came too soon - snow and standing water under the plate - wow, what a show. 

Have a 4x scope that I propose to use for more serious testing.  However the rings that came with the scope are very tall and that might be a problem.  The cross hairs are none too fine, so that too may prove an issue.

Trigger could be lighter.  But the feel is better than with the stock barrel.  Needed a larger travel case to hold SW22 and T wrenches and magazines. 
Manual says that the rail screw is 7/32, but I found it to be 3/32.  So I keep a 1/8 inch and 3/32 inch T wrench with the pistol.  One needs to check tightness of the two screws.  I am not keen on Blue Locktight, but will eventually use beeswax.     More data when I have it.

Spring must arrive eventually!    Mac

Mac/anyone. Looking for updates on the Victory. Spring should have got there by now. It was 82 here today in the shade.

Len