.45 off the shelf question

First topic message reminder :

If I continue with bullseye, I will probably be adding a 1911 .45 at some point.   Reading all the hand load threads here, I slink away thinking "if I don't hand load then I should just stick with the .22!"

But I don't want to take on hand loading (lack of space and time, not knowing if I will stick with it, past experience hand loading .38 spcl, etc.) nor buying a ransom rest.  So I'll need to have a plan to select ammo for the learning phase of having a .45.

I am looking for recommendations on what off-the shelf, reasonably priced ammo I should consider using.  Another factor is wanting to minimize recoil to avoid aggravating an elbow injury.   Since guns/barrels make a difference to which ammo is accurate, let's just assume a Springfield RO with the factory barrel. 

For initially learning the feel of the pistol and the phase of getting all the shots on the paper at 50 yds?   looking for cheap $/round
For next phase of getting consistent, tighter groupings (acknowledging they will be larger than hand loads)?  medium priced $/round
For matches? I'm willing to pay a bit more $/round but would prefer staying away from $150-$200 per 180 shots for a CF/.45 section of a match.

Still an important discussion. I still will probably buy some quality ammo first to get a feel for what a good load feels like. It will also give me starter brass if I decide to move to hand loading later. This info has helped me justify it when the time is right.

Aprilian wrote:

bdas wrote:

Aprilian (does that imply that you ride an Aprilia?),  If you're shooting on a budget, though, the lure of effective .45 bullseye rounds for ~20cpr (cents per round) is strong.

Dave

Yes, I have had 3 so far.  Aprilia + Ian = Aprilian   Based on your screen name are you a badass?

How long do you guess it is taking you to pay back the reloading investment with those roughly 30cpr savings?

Hi,

I've owned many an Aprilia and even rode one through Italy as their guest a ways back. Oh, I won 2 class championships on an Aprilia 2 years in a row. Damn, wish I could shoot that good... or even close.

Like mentioned, try the ones mentioned and see how you like them. If you have the time, though, reloading will benefit you in a few different ways.

Good Luck,

Joel

Aprilian wrote:

bdas wrote:

Aprilian (does that imply that you ride an Aprilia?),  If you're shooting on a budget, though, the lure of effective .45 bullseye rounds for ~20cpr (cents per round) is strong.

Dave

Yes, I have had 3 so far.  Aprilia + Ian = Aprilian   Based on your screen name are you a badass?

How long do you guess it is taking you to pay back the reloading investment with those roughly 30cpr savings?

RE: Aprilias... please tell me one was an RSV4, and that it was as sweet to ride as it looks on paper (I'd love to have one).
badass?  LOL.  Just an acronym.  It never occurred to me to try to "pronounce" my username, but I might have to run with it now that you've pointed it out.  I have a 20 year old VFR 750 that I'll be riding all around WV this weekend... does that count as badass?

As for reloading... I went with a Lee Classic Turret Press Deluxe Kit for $200, but to be realistic, all the accessories drive the price to start reloading to around $550.  Len touched on a few of the things you need... dies, powder, primers, bullets, and brass.  But you also need things like bullet puller, cartridge gauge/checker, case cleaner/tumbler, tumbling media, tumbling media treatment (NuFinish Car Polish or whatever), a sifter to separate the brass from the media, reloading trays, de-leading wipes or soap for your hands, ammo boxes, bolts to mount the press (assuming you already have a bench), lube/oil for the press, and calipers.  I want to also reload 9mm ammo, so that's another die set, an extra turret (the die holder for my press), a case for the turret & dies not currently in use, plus small pistol primers, different bullets, different brass, and different powders.  There are also lots of accessories that may not be strictly necessary, but make things easier or better, like bins to hold bullets & casings, an electronic scale, spray-type case lube, extra reloading manuals, the Lee Auto-Disk Adjustable Charge Bar, the RCBS Hex Lock Ring Wrench, industrial Sharpie markers, small repair parts for the press itself, a pan to dry the brass in (if you wash/rinse it), and probably more things I've already forgotten.  Most of those are cheap/small $5 - $15 items, but the costs do add up.

How quickly you recoup your investment depends heavily on what ammo you compare it to (.45 ammo can cost from 25cpr to 40cpr or more, and that's a huge range), what bullets you buy (prices range from 7 to 26 cents each, again a huge range), and how many times you can reload your brass (have to account for ones that get lost, picked up by others, crushed by the slide, stepped on, etc., and we're talking "average" not "I once reloaded a case 34 times").  I'm currently reloading my .45s for about 14 cents per round using "free" brass I already had, but that cost will go up significantly when I buy new brass, or start using better bullets.  Compared to ammo from Quality Made Cartridges at 25cpr, it'll take me over 5000 rounds to break even.  Compared to NSK Sales at 34cpr, it'll take me more like 2700 rounds to break even.  At my current rate, I'm shooting about 3500 - 4000 rounds of 45 per year, so I figure it'll realistically pay for itself in 8-16 months, depending on what numbers you use.  But, if I start using new Starline brass and better bullets, and as my reloading skills and knowledge improve, it might take much longer to break even, but now I'm using BETTER ammo than before, so it's not apples-to-apples any more.  Then it becomes a question of how much you're willing to pay for better ammo.

And I would be remiss to not mention what, to me, is the most expensive part of reloading... the time investment.  I'm still new to this, but the other day I made ~150 rounds in just under 3 hours, and that didn't count the time to prep the cases, which I had done previously, that's just time at the press.  I'm sure I'll get faster, but I can't see it ever being more than 100-125 rounds per hour (you have to be careful... you don't want the cost of reloading to start including things like guns, fingers, and eyes).  So, if I want to shoot 3500 - 4000 rounds per year, that's 40-100 hours per year that I have to spend on reloading.  Frankly, I'd really rather spend that time with my wife, kids, riding my motorcycle, shooting, relaxing, or whatever.  Not that reloading isn't rewarding or interesting, but it's not in my top-10 favorite things to do with my spare time.  So, to me, the time spent is a cost.

So, that's my take on the cost of reloading.  But it's just my opinion, and your mileage will certainly vary.

BDAS, great summary.   I am like you where time with family is valuable.  Your exhaustive list only has two items I currently own, a bench and a sharpie.

Plus there is another issue which comes up as I get closer to retirement - I want to declutter my house and move towards a smaller volume of possessions so we can move into a smaller home which will take less maintenance (saving time, cost and physical effort).    I'll have to balance the decluttering desire against more economical shooting which would allow more range trips in my retirement years.

I had the Rotax 1000 in a Futura. I was Jonesing for an 1100 v4 Tuono F last fall, but got distracted by the shooting sports bug.  I'll pick up a used 1100 Tuono Factory in a few years and paint it black to reduce attention from LEOs, the factory paint scheme is too bright for regular road usage.

If you need brass to get started, let us know.  I've been the recipient of thousands of rounds of many times fired brass from retiring bullseye shooters and will never use up what I have.  I started giving 1000 rounds of brass to beginning Bullseye shooters to lessen the financial impact of getting into reloading and so they'd have plenty of brass for a couple 2700 weekends and practice ammo.

I started with 500 rds of brass & thought that would be plenty...I was wrong (not the first time either).

I'm planning on shooting the Hibbing MN match on Sept 10th and the Superior WI match on the 11th, so if you want some let me know I'll throw an extra thousand or so in the car.  It will be a mixture of headstamps and unknown number of firings, but with 3.5-3.8 of clays and a good 200 gr lead bullet it'll hold under 1/2" c-t-c with any one of my BE guns from a Ransom at 50'.  It's the same load I use at 25 yds, but I haven't bothered Ransoming at that distance, anything out of the 'x' (and there's plenty) isn't the pistol or the load.

Al

Thanks Al, a very kind offer.   I'm not ready to start the reloading yet.   Have fun at the two "Up North" matches.

Quality and Nsk did not reply to emails, so I went with Roze. 


And I bought a reloading manual to start learning reloading.

Ok, I'm going to say it...

If you are going to reload, don't buy some piece of junk that is a "starter" press.  A Dillon ends up being $1000 but it's a pleasure to use and makes great ammo.  My "starter" press made decent ammo but required constant fiddling and eventually just got too frustrating to continue.  Eventually, you'll end up buying a good one and the money you spent on the junk just delays the amount of ammo you have to make to recoup your spending on the press.  Ask your local Masters and High Masters what they use for reloading and you'll get the same few answers. Many will have more than one. Dillon is not the only answer but is on the short list.

I am not one of the Masters or High Masters that carykiteboarder is referring to, but I have an opinion none the less.
 
If you go with the Dillon, I highly recommend the following accessories from Unique Tek.
   * CNC Machined toolhead with toolhead clamp kit installed
   * Micrometer powder bar
   * Precision Powder Baffle
   * Bin-Dam for the cartridge collection bin
 
p.s. I do NOT find the Arredondo powder drop bar to be more accurate than the Dillon extra small powder bar
 
I also like the toolhead light kit from Inline Fabrication.
 
I like the strong mount, roller handle and bullet tray from Dillon. Brian Enos is a reseller for Dillon Precision and you may find a package deal from his web site.
 
I prefer Redding dies over the Dillon dies.  I especially like their competition pro micro-adjustable bullet seating and crimping dies.
 
If there is a NRA Metallic Reloading class in your area, I recommend taking it if you have never reloaded before.

joy2shoot wrote:I am not one of the Masters or High Masters that carykiteboarder is referring to, but I have an opinion none the less.
 
If you go with the Dillon, I highly recommend the following accessories from Unique Tek.
   * CNC Machined toolhead with toolhead clamp kit installed
   * Micrometer powder bar
   * Precision Powder Baffle
   * Bin-Dam for the cartridge collection bin
 
p.s. I do NOT find the Arredondo powder drop bar to be more accurate than the Dillon extra small powder bar
 
I also like the toolhead light kit from Inline Fabrication.
 
I like the strong mount, roller handle and bullet tray from Dillon. Brian Enos is a reseller for Dillon Precision and you may find a package deal from his web site.
 
I prefer Redding dies over the Dillon dies.  I especially like their competition pro micro-adjustable bullet seating and crimping dies.
 
If there is a NRA Metallic Reloading class in your area, I recommend taking it if you have never reloaded before.

I agree with everything, but the NRA Metallic Reloading class. Some of the instructors for reloading have very limited experience and more than likely, no experience loading match quality ammo for bullseye shooting. One might do a lot better by asking a bullseye buddy, who reloads (almost all) to help you out. Offering your buddy a nice dinner might be the ticket.

And with the Dillon your out put rate, and thus your family time, will be much higher!

I was reloading on a single stage and then bought a Hornady LNL AP progressive and cut my reloading time way down. I should have made that move a long time ago. lol

I myself use the same setup described by joy2shoot except his is a 550; mine is a 650. I also use a XL650 "Roller Cam Follower" from Ballistic Tools.  I don't use Dillon dies because, for example, seating and crimp dies from Hornady (w/"Micro-just) and Redding (Competiton Pro) are easier to get tweaked to the dimensions I want.  Also, different dies work best for jacketed vs lead bullets. I have a different toolhead with dies for each bullet type. I recommend Brian Enos as a source and his site as an information resource.  He has an excellent discussion on how to choose the right Dillon press.  For .45ACP, this setup is hard to beat.  I guess I could add a Mr. Bulletfeeder...

I also reload .32ACP on this press.  That small case size is at the limits of the machine.  It took a number of tweaks to get it working well and requires a much more slow and smooth operating technique.  That discussion should be elsewhere.

Ok, I have to say it. You don't have to spend the money of a Dillon press to have an enjoyable and rewarding reloading experience. I use a Lee 4 turret progressive and have loaded thousands and thousands of rounds with it. It was very easy to set up and much more flexible to load various calibers. I currently have about 12,000 rounds here of loaded ammo in over 10 different calibers loaded on that single system. I am sure it is not as fast as a Dillon but speed isn't everything. I actually enjoy the process and find no reason to get it done as fast as possible. She reads, I reload. I have a separate turret set up for my most common loads and can literally change over in minutes. Seconds if there is no powder change. Just another option but one you should consider if funds are limited and time is available. Even if it's not about the money it's worth checking out. Personal opinion

LenV

You can see some extra turrets and shell holders under the shelve. All ready to be used.

I agree with LenV. There are other options besides Dillon equipment. I have Dillon and Hornady progressives and a bunch of RCBS Rockchuckers. Each has their use and some are permanently set up for a specific task.

There are some good videos here of different reloading equipment that will allow you a virtual tryout of each king of equipment. http://ultimatereloader.com/tag/gavintoobe/.

I started with a used Dillon Square Deal B.  I would become friends with someone and see if they will let you reload on their press.  I know I would to help get someone started.

A caution: When learning timed/rapid fire is it helpful to have the flexibility to load lighter loads to reduce recoil.  It helps to load the lightest load which enables your gun to function 100% of the time so you do not have alibi's.  This will vary from gun to gun.

LenV wrote:Got bored. Accepted the project. I figured out what it would cost to buy everything new and start re-loading your first 1000 rounds.

Lee Classic 4 hole turret press Deluxe kit. This kit has everything except dies. And I like them.     184.99

Lee Deluxe Carbide Dies. 4 die set                                                                                             43.99

1 lb powder at scalper price                                                                                                       30.00

1000 lg pistol primers                                                                                                                35.00

1000 200gr LSWC delivered price  http://www.tbbulletcasting.com/                                               95.50                                                

200 brand new .45 acp starline brass. (you only need 200 to get 1000 rds)                                   38.58

Total price. You will have a lot of powder left but its cheap anyhow                                              429.06


So, the first 1000 will cost you about 43 cents a round. Every bullet after that would cost around .14


Time spent BSing about your re-loads    Priceless

Cost savings as compared to buying 10,000 rounds of CCI Blazer Aluminum. 
$0.50-$0.04-$0.14=$0.32, X 10,000 = $3200

Cost savings over the life of a good Wadcutter, 50,000 rounds 
$0.65-$0.013-$0.15= $24,350

How I justified my KC Custom to the wife, "Honey Its only $0.07 per round; I spend more then that on ammo." 

I assume Ammo and reloading supplies inflate at 5% a year.

The Zero reloads were a bit disappointing.  I think some of the cases were old enough to be work hardened based on the number of burned casings I picked up.   My new ammo didn't have any burn marks.

The powder choice seemed to be a bit slow as most loads shot big flames.

joy2shoot wrote:I am not one of the Masters or High Masters that carykiteboarder is referring to, but I have an opinion none the less.
 
If you go with the Dillon, I highly recommend the following accessories from Unique Tek.
   * CNC Machined toolhead with toolhead clamp kit installed
   * Micrometer powder bar
   * Precision Powder Baffle
   * Bin-Dam for the cartridge collection bin
 
I like the strong mount, roller handle and bullet tray from Dillon. Brian Enos is a reseller for Dillon Precision and you may find a package deal from his web site.
 
I prefer Redding dies over the Dillon dies.  I especially like their competition pro micro-adjustable bullet seating and crimping dies.

On my second trip to the AMU we sat down the head loading shop bubba, awesome guy and I would add this based on his expertise (not my own):

   * CNC Machined toolhead with toolhead clamp kit installed - worse than OEM, AMU will not use them.
   * Micrometer powder bar - faster but no more accuracy than OEM, AMU does not use them
   * Precision Powder Baffle - works as advertised, many versions, AMU weighs all charges, but for home use, shop guys said they're great.
https://www.amazon.com/Prairie-Dog-6-102-Perfect-Powder/dp/B00MIVA7IO

I saw only one set of Dillon dies in the AMU shop, the rest were almost entirely Redding with a few cats/dogs.  Someday when I hit the lottery I'll upgrade (rifle first)

Better IMO than than the strong mount is the UltraMount from Inline Fabrication,  I wish I would have bought that instead.

http://inlinefabrication.com/collections/ultramounts/products/ultramount-press-riser-system-for-the-dillon-650

Is the AMU having an issue with the CNC Machined toolhead, or the clamping part or both?  If it is the clamping part, I guess I am going to disagree with AMU.  The OEM toolhead on the Dillon moves are you work the press.  Having used (and still use on occasion) a single stage press, I am used to having dies rock solid in the press.  When I switched to the clamped toolhead, my OAL and crimps became more consistent.  (You do have to follow the instructions that come with the clamping kit.)  If the concern is the CNC Machined toolhead, UniqueTek sells a clamping kit for the OEM.
 
The advantage of the micrometer powder bar comes in when you change charges.  Whenever you find the correct charge, write the micrometer number down.  When you need to return to that charge, set the micrometer to that number (and then check your charge with an accurate scale before reloading).

Can't argue with an AMU reloader...  

I would be curious to know what is worse than OEM with a clamped toolhead.  I own the clamped tool head because it reduces bullet seating/OAL variation. (Zero .45 185gr JHP & Hornady XTP .32 60gr JHP) For .45ACP, slight variation in bullet seating depth/OAL due to tool head vertical slack is probably insignificant in the real world. For the little .32ACP rounds, the difference might be real. Obviously, the AMU guy does not care about .32ACP. Never-the-less, although it would not surprise me if the clamped tool head was no better than OEM, it's hard to understand how it could be worse.

Perhaps horizontal tool head slack improves some other element of the reloading. Sizing, flare, powder drop, crimp?  Also, if they weigh every charge, it would be interesting to see how that works on a progressive press.

I REPEAT... I am not disputing a guy from the AMU.  Neither am I asserting that any particular press is better than another.  My original point was that I personally tried a (red) lesser press and ended up with a (blue) better press and wish I'd skipped the first purchase.

As always, if anything I write is contradicted by a High Master, ignore me.  The High Master is right.  (An AMU reloader is a High Master Reloader.)

carykiteboarder wrote:Can't argue with an AMU reloader...  I REPEAT... I am not disputing a guy from the AMU.  Neither am I asserting that any particular press is better than another.  My original point was that I personally tried a (red) lesser press and ended up with a (blue) better press and wish I'd skipped the first purchase.  As always, if anything I write is contradicted by a High Master, ignore me.  The High Master is right.  (An AMU reloader is a High Master Reloader.)

They found the 550 to be slightly superior to the 650 in production and the 1050 to be the best of the Dillons.   The 650 had the most deviation, but one reloader has a 550 at home (pistol) and the other a 650 (rifle) for personal use, so both must be okay .   Pistol supervisor (High Master) and the rifle reloader (high master/olympic medalist) seemed legit . We learned a lot, kept our mouths shut and listened.   Great lesson in components, equipment and tools.   They had RCBS Rock Chucker single stages, old, not the China stuff, and quite a few so it was an assembly line, a 650, 550 and a couple 1050s.

joy2shoot wrote:Is the AMU having an issue with the CNC Machined toolhead, or the clamping part or both?  If it is the clamping part, I guess I am going to disagree with AMU.  The OEM toolhead on the Dillon moves are you work the press.  Having used (and still use on occasion) a single stage press, I am used to having dies rock solid in the press.  When I switched to the clamped toolhead, my OAL and crimps became more consitent

They found no difference in performance with the CNC machines vs Dillon toolhead, the problem is with the clamp.   The explanation to us was that the 650/550 have quite a bit of movement,  Allowing the toolhead to "float" permits alignment.  When you lock the tool head in place you prevent that and lose consistency.   A single stage doesn't suffer from the same movement.  By locking the toolhead you are preventing the press from "settling" as they explained it.  Given they're setup and experience, that was good enough for me.

From the photo, which is from a review, which will hopefully upload soon, if not, I'll get it uploaded at home on my PC vice phone.  Before the clamp kit the deviation in OAL is +/- .01, but after the kit is installed the deviation is +/- .02. Without the clamp, 12 of 100 are outside 1.85 OAL, but again, within +/- .01 OAL, after installation there are still 12 of 100 outside 1.85 OAL, but with the deviation -.02.

The shop guys, one of them an Olympic shooter/medalist are supporting other National and Olympic shooters, both rifle/pistol, with range facilities that none of us have access to and talent that is rare to execute.   If there was advantage they would take it. 

Well, I do agree that the tool head clamp is not needed on the 650.  With the tolerances of the shell plate, dies and total head assembly, fixing the head in position will generally produces some other issues worse than just letting the whole assembly find its center.  A smoothly working 650 will produce excellent and extremely consistent pistol ammunition.  

Biggest issue here is that we can NEVER get a consistent OAL measurement.  Because the nose distance of every bullet will be slightly different with respect to a point on ogive of a jacketed bullet or the shoulder of the SWC.  Sometimes not by much, sometimes more than you think. So some of what we are measuring is manufacturing tolerances. 

So the best we can do, particularly with a progressive press,  is get a jacketed bullet seater that contacts the bullet on a consistent point of the ogive or the LSWC shoulder, (not the nose of either).  If your jacketed bullet seater is using the nose, you might want to relieve it there and see if that helps your measurement or groups. 

While I got the same OAL differences with jacketed 185's (Nosler, Zero, etc.) with either seating method.  I got smaller groups with the ogive contact seater.  Basically, I'm looking for a consistent distance from the base of the bullet to where it will first contact the lands every time.  (The nose distance does not make any difference.)

Additionally with lead bullets, I got better results by seating the bullets in 2 steps (the 650 will allow this).  A partial seat on station 3 and final seating on station 4 (using the above mention shoulder seating stem for the final seat).

I think Dillon dies are great and that's all I use in my 650.  And I use "O" rings under each die in the tool head (except sizing).  The O rings keep the die pushed "up" in the threads, the same direction it would go when contacting the shells.  I also check and deburr the inside of the powder measure assembly, lightly polish the detent holes on the bottom of the shell plate for smoother operation.  You should also make sure the wave washer on the powder measure bolt is providing enough friction and mark the location on the bolt and assembly so you can see any movement. 

CR

Cecil,
Thanks!  I learned something new again.  I checked and the bullet seating dies I use for JHP do indeed contact the bullet about half way between the nose and the edge of the ogive.  That explains the (reasonably small) variations I was measuring in OAL.

JayHawkNavy02,
Pardon my ignorance but what cartridge is being loaded to 1.85" OAL?
Glen

carykiteboarder wrote:JayHawkNavy02,
Pardon my ignorance but what cartridge is being loaded to 1.85" OAL?
Glen

25-20 from the article.  Never heard of it.  The important takeaway, for me, was that, yet again, the toolhead clamp/CNC combo is not required.
Dillon also states that it is not recommended as it hampers performance.

Cheers,
Derek