Frame-Mounted vs. Slide-Mounted Red Dot Sights?

First topic message reminder :

Why do most bullseye shooters have slide mounted red dot sights instead of frame mounted dots?  I would think the frame mounted ones would be more reliable and less picky about ammo.

TheFroneck wrote:The majority have determined that the slide mount preforms best for them! I do NOT care what any gunsmith said! Most can't shoot competition! Their main interest is to sell their product! Top shooters I know tell their gunsmith what they want not ask what they should shoot!

Lots of great information, but one part I don't agree with, and hopefully not taking this out of context.  

Jerry is retired; therefore, no financial interest in advocating something he doesn't market or sell.   Even if he wasn't retired, I don't think Jerry would ever do anything not in the shooters best interest and I've stood next to him many times, they don't make folks better than that.   Dave Sams supported and still does, like Jerry, many premier shooters, and while he also advocates the frame mount, his price is agnostic to the type (frame or slide) when he builds your wad gun. 

I don't think either is trying to market a product, but instead provide the best information/guidance they can based on their experience supporting shooters, many our nations best, in order to get the best results possible.  

Jerry, if I overstepped, apologies.

Derek

JayhawkNavy02 wrote:

TheFroneck wrote:The majority have determined that the slide mount preforms best for them! I do NOT care what any gunsmith said! Most can't shoot competition! Their main interest is to sell their product! Top shooters I know tell their gunsmith what they want not ask what they should shoot!

Lots of great information, but one part I dont think I agree with, and hopefully not taking this out of context.  Jerry is retired so he has no financial interest advocating something he doesn't market/sell.   Even if he wasn't I don't think Jerry would ever do anything not in the shooters best interest and I've stood next to him many times, they don't make folks better than that.   

Dave Sams supported and still does, like Jerry, maby premier shooters and while he also advocates the frame mount, his price is agnostic to the type (frame or slide) when he builds your wad gun.  I don't think either is trying to market a product, but instead provide the best information/guidance they can based on their experience supporting a multitude of shooters to help you get the best results possible.

Jerry, if I overstepped apologies

Derek

You've said very well what's on many of our minds...

thanks.

Jim

I did say MOST not All gunsmiths. Jimmy Clark was the only civilian to ever win the National Match. Floyd Aikman was a 2650 shooter. My point was not directed at Jerry, Sams or anyone else! The point is that the shooter has to decide which is best for him, I'm sure as I mentioned ALL of the 2650+ shooters have tried slide and frame mount and the majority selected Slide Mount. Dave Lang is a good shooter and nice guy he's shooting a Frame Mount because it works best for him! I'm sure he tried both!
 Another member of the forum sent me this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyNkZHjkkB8  I suggest those interested in shooting well look at it. Yes it is of my son learning to shoot left handed and managed to break 2650 in one year. He identified what needed to be done and did it! It has noting to do with the topic but demonstrates what I'm trying to say! Notice he went to former National Match winners for advice I would think that anyone can learn quite a bit from a Match winner in one hour than can be learned in a week from a gunsmith that never won a match!

Dave Sams' scope mount looks like an aluminum version of George Huening's (of World Class Pistols, Inc) carbon fiber and aluminum honeycomb frame from the late 80s/early 90s.

Nowlin made one like that too. I have a new one in the box
Jon

Froneck wrote:I did say MOST not All gunsmiths. Jimmy Clark was the only civilian to ever win the National Match. Floyd Aikman was a 2650 shooter. My point was not directed at Jerry, Sams or anyone else! The point is that the shooter has to decide which is best for him, I'm sure as I mentioned ALL of the 2650+ shooters have tried slide and frame mount and the majority selected Slide Mount. Dave Lang is a good shooter and nice guy he's shooting a Frame Mount because it works best for him! I'm sure he tried both!
 Another member of the forum sent me this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyNkZHjkkB8  I suggest those interested in shooting well look at it. Yes it is of my son learning to shoot left handed and managed to break 2650 in one year. He identified what needed to be done and did it! It has noting to do with the topic but demonstrates what I'm trying to say! Notice he went to former National Match winners for advice I would think that anyone can learn quite a bit from a Match winner in one hour than can be learned in a week from a gunsmith that never won a match!

I shoot irons... this year I will be shooting my first scoped pistol (slide mount). The new pistol I'm taking delivery on in 2017 is a frame mount. 

I, like most should be spending more time with quality training....but buying top notch guns that I hope to increase my scores by at least 1 point makes me happy.

JayhawkNavy02 wrote:
Jerry, if I overstepped, apologies.

Derek

Not at all Derek.. Thank you
I won my share of PPC matches, big and small for over 20 years.....But, I get a thousand times more gratification, seeing this woman, make master,  recover from major surgery on her arm, break 2600 in less than 5 years, and rapidly climbing her way to high master...knowing we left no stone unturned.. I learned long ago to never accept the status quo.. There is always a better way.. Pascarella shot 2657-139X with a junk grip mount..in 1980.AT PERRY.!!! 36 years ago.. What might he have done with a low mount Sams'?? He was ahead of his time..Yet some will still argue it's fruitless to pursue alternatives.. Tonight I watched a "girl" shoot ten strings of 5 rounds 45 rapid fire, with a frame mount with a negative of  4 nines total...That's impressive.. I don't care who it is..She is also a switch hitter, as I call her.. She shoots lefty for .22 match (low 880s ) and goes into CF and .45 right handed.. Saving her right arm for the bigger guns..
Winners are fighters..always fighting to gain another point.. one point at a time..
When she came to me and wanted to shoot.. I asked her, "Do you want to be a participant, or a competitor.?" There's a very huge difference..
I don't care if no one else ever uses a frame mount.. I share because I love this sport that I have been a small part of since the early 1960s..

Pascarella shot 2657 with a junk grip mount simply because it was the only mount available at the time. That grip mount proved to be junk as years went by! Which means nothing, Hamilton shot 2680 (thought not at Perry) with iron sights. Furthermore it will never be known if Pascarella would have chosen slide mount if it was available at that time.  This shooting is an example of the shooters skill and ability plus more so willingness to do what is required to become a Top Competitor! Shooting scores continue to rise due to better bullets, guns and powder. Master class was moved up to 95% and then High Master Class was created because of this. Due to a few dedicated to the sport to make a better mouse trap! However the same group continue to dominate the field, new members of the "group" come up as age takes it's toll but it's the dedication to learning to shoot great that's bringing the new members there!
 Your "Girl" came to you as and experienced shooter with the intention of being a good competitor not a participant. With that she applied her skill and ability and willingness to do as required to become a great shooter. Her clime up the ladder of success is evident of that and the point I'm trying to make. Long after Pascarella used the dot scope many more types became available, better mounting was developed yet just purchasing a new mouse trap hasn't changed scores for most shooters! It simply requires the desire of the individual to learn and adapt the basics to his or her requirements. To look inward at one's self to determine what is particular about themselves and how to adapt that to shooting. That's why I posted that link! For everyone wanting to learn to be a "competitor" I suggest they watch it!
 Coaching is a difficult task! One can not expect another to be a clone of themselves, what may be great for the coach may not be for the coached!

Froneck wrote:
 Your "Girl" came to you as and experienced shooter

Wrong again... she had no experience what so ever, and had great difficulty passing the shooting requirements for basic police qualifications..
She's definitely not a clone to me, because she has far surpassed any and all of my achievements..
 Go ahead now... your turn .. Keep sticking your foot  in it...

My foot is not in it! The girl came to you being that YOU were an experienced shooter, you said she came to you and wanted to learn! Which to me meant she had little or no previous knowledge about shooting and therefore was asking you to teach her!
 I never said she was a clone nor were you treating her as one! That comment was made after I mentioned the link I posted, Adam was telling the interviewer what he did to become a 2650 shooter shooting with his left hand. It's about his personal effort to acquire the information needed! Now being the coach of the AMU and having to instruct others the information acquired that helped him is helping others. The comment was made because the previous coach was requiring all the shooter to  shoot the same way and the same drills! He required Henderson to participate in rapid fire drills just after he broke the rapid fire record. AMU Shooters were requesting to be removed from bullseye and Henderson went to International! I didn't want to get into the dirty laundry so my intent was to tell those wanting to learn to avoid attempting to copy someone else or taking direction from someone that used the method of do as I do!
 My post was directed to those here wanting to learn how to shoot, to determine what is best for them and avoid those that want to pontificate.
 I do not know what you are doing or how you are doing it! She's getting good so you must be doing a good job! I can only assume that!
 Too often I read others telling new shooters to do as they have, they have a stance that's correct, the gun that's correct, ammo that's correct etc., etc.! If that were the case everyone would be shooting the same gun, the same loads and so on! The point I'm trying to make to those willing to understand is that shooting is and individual sport, the score you have to beat is your previous one! To look over their shoulder at what the other guy is doing will never get them moving up in class!
 Which brings me back to slide vs frame mount! Adam shot at Perry when he was 10 years old, I have a photo of him shooting the .45 in full recoil, brass still in the air. Taken by the Indiana State Association and sent to Adam. However he was much younger when starting to shoot, I gave him my Colt National Match .38 Special, shot it once and didn't like it and wanted the .45. Thinking that the slide mount would have problems being shot by a young shooter I made him a frame mounted .45, after shooting it a few times he didn't like it and wanted a slide mount. I changed it and he simply took off with it!
 I'm not trying to compare frame to slide mount as to which one is more accurate or functions better! My point is that the shooter must decide which is better for them! The type that results in the best score is the one that should be selected and no one else can determine that and if attempted then cloning is evident!
 So to answer the OP's question those shooters that selected the slide mount did it because it preformed better for them! A case can be made that new shooters don't know any better and are following what others have and in some cases that may be true but the majority of top shooters also use the slide mount.

Its the old Ford or Chevy debate , there is no best or right or wrong its what works best for you. Try it all and find out or you will never know.

john bickar wrote:Standing here in 2016, the most incredible thing about that American Rifleman cover is not Pascarella's dot mount, nor his Bo-Mar rib, nor his awesome cop 'stash, nor the aviator glasses, nor the khaki uniform; it's the fact that American Rifleman had competitive shooting in it at all, let alone on the cover.

Absolutely!!

I have a copy of the October 1990 edition here. Cover was Camp Perry, more than 12 pages inside were Camp Perry (including two page spreads for Rifle, Pistol, and small bore). Heck there was over 1/2 a page explaining why the 45 stage of the pistol match had to be cut due to water shorting motors on the turning targets.

It rains and gets wet at Camp Perry?

I was at Camp Perry that year, actually I have been to Camp Perry every year since 1982. I think they were kinda stretching it! Probably didn't want to run the targets and risk a short! I was on 1st relay that year on .45 day. Back then you shot the same relay for the entire match however the starting time changed. So 1st relay on .45 day was the same as 2nd relay now. The previous relay completed, it sprinkled but not heavy. Range was controlled by a woman that like to start first and finish first and was constantly rushing the shooters, I never like shooting on the range she controlled! Relay 1 was called to the ready line but not to the line and it started to really pour, she kept us out there for a half hour yet no one was at any of the other ranges. There were no tents, the tent they use now was for Small Bore, they was supposedly donated to Pistol when Small Bore left Perry a few years ago. Eventually the match was called off. The target turning mechanism  were never tried though targets were falling out of the frames due to them not being waxed as they were in previous years. The next day everyone shot Ball. No awards were given for .45 nor was the entry fee returned!
 Back then the range was great when it rained, no mud pits or huge water puddles. The drainage system worked.

JWelch wrote:Jayhawk, Mr. Keefer, both of you mentioned Mr. Sams swayed your opinion but you didn't articulate why.  Will one of you gentlemen mind sharing the reasons Mr. Sams gave in favor of the frame mount?

J,

I wrote Dave, and wanted to post up his response, vice what I might poorly paraphrase.  Hopefully not picking at the scab or re-igniting contested discussion on what is an otherwise very gentlemanly forum that I enjoy for that reason.

Pros and Cons of Slide and Frame Mounts Sams Custom Gunworks (SCG)

SCG Frame Mount Pros:


1.       Solid anchor to frame by 3 each 6-32 Cam-Car torx screws that are flat head-tapered for self-alignment and repeatable zero, ¼” (.250) thread engagement with frame per screw.  Can be attached to frame with or without use of thread locker compound.

2.      Mount does not interfere with normal cycle/function of pistol.  Allows proper weight recoil springs to counteract recoil, with full forward slide thrust for positive cartridge pick-up from magazine, feeding, chambering, and lock-up.
3.      Lowest possible scope position above slide.

4.      SCG frame mount permanent installation of a 1/8” (.125”) thick steel pad to frame provides approximately ¼” (.250”) of threading for mount screws (only 3 each) unlike others, which may utilize up to 10 screws for mounting thru the dust cover that only captures about one thread per screw.  

SCG Frame Mount Cons:


1.      May require installation of slide racker depending on scope.


2.      Requires proper slide/frame fit for scope/barrel alignment.

Slide Mount Pros:


1.      Perceived lighter recoil impulse because of the slide weight (mass)

2.      Handle for retracting the slide (scope itself)

Slide Mount Cons:


1.      Additional slide mass.  More than what the pistol was designed for.

2.      Requires lighter recoil springs for function and in cold weather may require even lighter spring or hotter loads.

3.      Slower cycle of operation affects extraction and ejection.

4.      Lighter recoil spring makes cartridge pick-up from magazine slower and increases risk of malfunction.

5.      Slower forward thrust makes chambering less complete, especially if chamber fouling present.

6.      Reduced lock-up after chambering, less fit pressure between slide stop pin and bottom barrel lug.

7.      May require more tolerance in fitted areas for reliable function, which decrease accuracy.