Les Baer Wad Guns

Tell me if I have made a mistake.

I have a Les Baer wad gun on order. Some folks in my pistol club tell me these are not accurate guns.

IMHO
Cancel the order if possible.  Put your money in a Range Officer and have one of the reliable bullseye smiths, such as Dave Salyer, build you a wad gun.
Very strong opinions to follow.

Warhorse wrote:Tell me if I have made a mistake.

I have a Les Baer wad gun on order. Some folks in my pistol club tell me these are not accurate guns.

Lot of guys & gun smiths here bad mouth the baers, yet none offer anything even close to the quality of one for the price and that's just the hard truth.  You will love it. very accurate, super tight fit, built with the best parts. It will shoot as good or better than any other smith built gun, 2'' at 50 yards is the same no matter who built it. I own several, have sold dozens to customers and Have a custom built Accu-Lock and a Mike Curtis custom shop  both built on Les Baer frame and slides and if Travis Strahan and Mike Curtis ( both are American Pistol smith Guild members) build a gun using these frame/slides you can bet your favorite pig they are top quality.   Sure you could by a RO for 800.00 then spend another 800.00 + getting it rebarreled, ready for optics and all new internals and it would be a good wad gun. I know cause it did it, had Dave Salyer rebuild it and it was what it was. It shot good, wasn't very pretty but pretty doesn't add points but I still like a pretty gun. IMO you only made one mistake... You could have bought it direct from Champions choice as they have them in stock most all the time. Also Les Baer guns are the only 1911 target pistols champions choice puts there name on and the same was true for legend Gil Hebard. anyone who thinks these guys would sell and stand behind something that wasn't of good quality or accurate doesn't know them.   If for some reason there was a issue, Les will stand behind his gun and fix it.

I don't own one. I have a friend that owns two. One of which is fitted so tight that too much oil makes it tough to rack the slide. Never heard of nor seen that before but we wiped some out with a patch and it freed up some. I've heard others tell me they have had headspace issues. It varies from gun to gun but this I can not back up. 

I've seen em shoot real good though. That much I can tell you for sure. However if yours happens to need work - you're into it already for a lot of money plus custom work or repairs or corrections. I like the range officer build idea because you'll be into it for the same roughly with a garintee that it's not going back to the shop for anything for a long time. Granted you use Sayler, KC, or Jon. My range officer is gonna see Jon this winter or spring for a rebarrel and possibly a roll trigger job.

Get the Les Baer, it's a very accurate and beautiful gun. Once you get a chance to shoot it and notice all the detail put into it you will be spoiled on hand built 1911's. I used a Colt Gold Cup for EIC matches and shot in the 260's with it. I sold it and bought a Les Baer Premier II and now shoot in the 280's.

I have two right now, a wad gun originally from CC and a PPC model. I bought both used and both have thousands of rounds through them. They both shoot great. I know a Navy shooter that broke 290 with his Baer ballgun and a Coast Guard shooter that made HM with his and had told me he put 60,000 rounds through it before he had any problems, they fixed it. Maybe not all are perfect, Mike Curtis didn't make thousands of pistols every year, but they are solid pistols usually at a decent price point.

I had a Nat'l Champion tell me once that until a person cleans the shortline with their 22 that focusing on shooting is the most important to higher scores. A Baer pistol will not limit anybody that cannot clean the shortline.

If you can clean the short line you should be shooting 2650-2670.

I said with the 22, John.

Well I'm going to pipe in.  RUN AWAY if you can get your deposit back do it and never look back.  Yes David I have built on Baer slides and receivers as well.  The current production Baer guns are crap.  Lockup is way to tight, barrel lugs are sloped, feed ramps overcut and customer service that is lacking in every way possible from my customers that have tried to deal with them.  I'm working on a Baer gun right now that I had to re-barrel.  The new barrel went so far up into the locking recesses on the slide I couldn't get lock up on the pin.  And that was without touching the lower lugs on a KKM barrel.  They are built to a price point and that's it.  Quality is a hit and miss chance.  There is a reason they cost about a grand less than anything else.

AllAces wrote:IMHO
Cancel the order if possible.  Put your money in a Range Officer and have one of the reliable bullseye smiths, such as Dave Salyer, build you a wad gun.
Very strong opinions to follow.

+100%. the range officer is a high quality pistol for less money than a les baer. go with a Range officer!

I was going to be a good boy and keep my thoughts/comments to myself, but KC inspired me to put my 2 cents in. I re-barrel a lot of NEW Les Baers pistols. Les was never known to fit a barrel right himself so I'm not surprised to see poorly fit barrels from staff. RO is great platform for getting BE pistol built. You can do it right the first time or get the Baer and luck out or end up putting a lot more money into gunsmithing and a new barrel. I have a friend who bought 2 Baers. One I was able to save and the other I told bim to send back to Baer. Les treated him like crap on the phone and finally ended up re-barreling pistol. Lugs were going to shear off. So unfortunately I believe the odds are against you getting a good pistol from them. Also just because a pistol might shoot well from Ransom doesn't mean it will shoot good from hand.
Jon

Jon Eulette wrote:I was going to be a good boy and keep my thoughts/comments to myself.
Jon

Tough to do Jon,  but,  I am doing much better at  it now..

Isn't Les Baer a pistol smith guild member? Or was ?

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. I bought a used Baer a few years ago and it still shoots less than 1.5" at 50 yards. And no it's not for sale.

Bill

And there you have the opinions.  Owners seem to like them, smiths say otherwise.  Others say go by a Springfield Range Officer.......

Blah blah

The problem with a Range Officer is that it won't take you to the stage at the awards ceremony at Perry.  A Les Baer probably won't either, but if you get the 1 1/2 guarantee, it might.  But the Baer is more ready to get you to master than the RO.  It might not be as smooth in operation and felt recoil might be higher, but the pistol is ready to win local and perhaps regional matches. Some smiths might fit them better or just differently, but that's like saying my mechanic is better 'cuz he uses high grade wrenches.  What counts is the results.

for me i want a pistol that holds a group and continues to as it wears in. I'm no gunsmith but im sure many can build one that is a super tight fit and shoots a great group after first being built.  How will it do with thousands for rounds through it ??

Wobbley wrote:And there you have the opinions.  Owners seem to like them, smiths say otherwise.  Others say go by a Springfield Range Officer.......

Blah blah

The problem with a Range Officer is that it won't take you to the stage at the awards ceremony at Perry.  A Les Baer probably won't either, but if you get the 1 1/2 guarantee, it might.  But the Baer is more ready to get you to master than the RO.  It might not be as smooth in operation and felt recoil might be higher, but the pistol is ready to win local and perhaps regional matches. Some smiths might fit them better or just differently, but that's like saying my mechanic is better 'cuz he uses high grade wrenches.  What counts is the results.

I haven't been doing this very long but one thing I now believe is that the person behind the gun wins or doesn't win, not the gun. I'm not particularly good at this game and my stock Springfields shot mid 90's slow fires when I was up to the task. THEN I sent one away to be fine tuned.

robert84010 wrote:I said with the 22, John.

Understood, and I stand behind my statement.

If you can clean the short line with the .22, you should be shooting 2650-2670.

(Better, Robert?  )

John,
about 12 or 13 years ago I was lucky enough to convince Mario Lazoya to do a clinic for shooters in San Diego. We started doing the drills that he taught to summer team shooters while he was at Quantico. This was before a download of the workbook was available. He never once mentioned equipment accuracy standards. He did specifically mention to not worry about equipment until a person cleans the 22 shortline.
It was all about process. We shot at 50 with 22's and just worked on shot calls, then some shortline stuff. He was a 2670 shooter and I never heard him talk about test targets over the several pizza's and beer we had together.
If people here want to tell new shooters they need custom built pistols then great, let them sit on a wait list rather than shoot a decent pistol available now. But when I hear it I just want to transfer what a 2670 National Champ told me to focus on.
I transferred a pistol from the FFL holder in Orange County to Mario from Curtis. He won a springfield at the All-States and Curtis built it up. The target was not a sub 1.5" laser. Mario didn't seem to care about the group.

orpheoet wrote:

Wobbley wrote:And there you have the opinions.  Owners seem to like them, smiths say otherwise.  Others say go by a Springfield Range Officer.......

Blah blah

The problem with a Range Officer is that it won't take you to the stage at the awards ceremony at Perry.  A Les Baer probably won't either, but if you get the 1 1/2 guarantee, it might.  But the Baer is more ready to get you to master than the RO.  It might not be as smooth in operation and felt recoil might be higher, but the pistol is ready to win local and perhaps regional matches. Some smiths might fit them better or just differently, but that's like saying my mechanic is better 'cuz he uses high grade wrenches.  What counts is the results.

I haven't been doing this very long but one thing I now believe is that the person behind the gun wins or doesn't win, not the gun. I'm not particularly good at this game and my stock Springfields shot mid 90's slow fires when I was up to the task. THEN I sent one away to be fine tuned.

Agreed

I wanted a gun and wanted it now.  Found a good buy on a 2004 1.5" LB wad gun. I didn't want to wait for a build and honestly since I'm new, I don't even know what I'd want anyway or where to get it or how much to budget.   

There's a place for stock RO's , LB's and built guns.  Once I get a little father along I'll send a smith a project, but at least I'll have a good gun in the mean time.

robert84010 wrote:John,
about 12 or 13 years ago I was lucky enough to convince Mario Lazoya to do a clinic for shooters in San Diego. We started doing the drills that he taught to summer team shooters while he was at Quantico. This was before a download of the workbook was available. He never once mentioned equipment accuracy standards. He did specifically mention to not worry about equipment until a person cleans the 22 shortline.
It was all about process. We shot at 50 with 22's and just worked on shot calls, then some shortline stuff. He was a 2670 shooter and I never heard him talk about test targets over the several pizza's and beer we had together.
If people here want to tell new shooters they need custom built pistols then great, let them sit on a wait list rather than shoot a decent pistol available now. But when I hear it I just want to transfer what a 2670 National Champ told me to focus on.
I transferred a pistol from the FFL holder in Orange County to Mario from Curtis. He won a springfield at the All-States and Curtis built it up. The target was not a sub 1.5" laser. Mario didn't seem to care about the group.

On the other hand, how many Big Team shooters have you seen without good equipment. I have heard more than one Marine National Champion tell me about  sending a gun back to the truck because the trigger felt different. In one case the difference was 2 oz. on a 4 lb trigger. 

I have a Baer frame on a Curtis Wadcutter Gun. It works great. But a Baer Frame is not  a Baer gun. 

This is the second conversation about Lazoya, I have had today. The people I know who shot with and against him all say that that he is both a great shooter and coach.

kc.crawford.7 wrote:Yes David I have built on Baer slides and receivers as well.  The current production Baer guns are crap.  Quality is a hit and miss chance.  There is a reason they cost about a grand less than anything else.

On the Navy Team we have had new Les Baers go immediately to the USMC PWS Gunsmith. 
Bad barrel fit, triggers, and sloppy bushing fit.  Because of the frequent issues they are becoming unpopular.

IMO, look at what Jon, KC, Jerry, or any respected Bullseye Gunsmith recommends and you should be happy. 
I started with a Range Officer and it grew with me.  Great inexpensive start.

DavidR wrote:If for some reason there was a issue, Les will stand behind his gun and fix it.

We had several folks with poorly fit barrels, bushings and triggers (that is subjective).  After several trips, where the only action take by Baer's company was to tighten the slide to frame fit to correct poor barrel fit, our folks spoke with Les himself.  He backed his warranty folks and said the barrel fit was fine.  What he didn't know is that we had the USMC Pistol Team Gunsmith inspect the pistols and knew they were UNSAT.  He refused to do anything.  They ended up with Dave Sams and other Bullseye gunsmiths to be fixed.  The up front cost of the pistol, plus the work (barrel, bushing, trigger job) resulted in a 1911 that was almost as expensive as a full custom from a Bullseye Gunsmith.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/298739620052/permalink/10154436442970053/?comment_id=10154438089985053¬if_t=group_comment_reply¬if_id=1473655453385459

That said, on a positive note, we have seen some really nice pistols, but the lack of consistency is what is concerning given the price. 
My team mate, made the P100 with his Baer

I guess I missed where the original poster stated he was a fill time Quantico shooter. I've never understood the correlation to what a National Champion uses to justify what new shooters need to use to get started? Exactly why I end up responding to these types of postings, some people seem to think a marksman needs to use what a HM uses.
I shot right next to a summer shooter at Canton in'06, he was using a bomar ribbed gun. When do you think the last time a full time team guy capable of winning Perry shot those? He was happy as he possibly could be because he had just earned his campaign cover by shooting 2550 with irons, that was a checklist item he needed to make. They teach shooters to set and achieve goals and reward them for making those gains. I don't imagine he walked into the van and threw his pistol on the bench demanding a trigger job that whole summer. Yes I have heard of a specific shooter doing that, he also won Perry. It seems to me it's about earning your spot on the team and I suppose at some point that gets you upgraded gunsmith attention. I see that as matching levels of capabilities, you set a .22 record at Perry, you get to have your trigger reworked on demand, because that person is capable of setting a national record!

stages of progress, like cleaning the shortline with a 22 earns you a top 'smith 45 because until then it probably won't make that big of a difference to your 3 gun aggregate. I have a 45 built by a San Diego gunsmith that mentored at least two of the gunsmiths on this website, all basic parts except for Caspian frame/slide, Kart barrel, a trigger that I like, less than $800 12 years ago. If I call a good shot it's a good on call shot, when I call an 8 it's an 8. simple at that. The problem is that I still shoot 8's. Worse yet is that I don't call close to 90% of my shots. A $3k+ gun would not improve my score. I don't need a gun built by KC to shoot a called 6. that is all i'm trying to convey. sorry I know this doesn't help sell pistols.

As with anything everyone has their own opinion....But to be such crappy built  pistols they sure seem to work good!  Make your own mind up,  this was just up thru 2012, could be even more now.
 

Team Less Baer.... ACCOMPLISHMENTS

*****News from Camp Perry 2012!*****



Kathy Chatterton 2012 Woman National Champion EIC Service Pistol & Krelstein Trophy

Teresa Meyer earns second Presidents 100 Award at Camp Perry

• Kathy Chatterton won the Rose Krelstein Trophy for top combined Service Pistol and President's Hundred Score 2011
  
• Kimberly Hobart won High Woman National Champion in the Preliminary Championship, High Woman National Champion .22 caliber pistol, and was 2009 Pennsylvania State Open Winner with a 2617-109X!!
  
• Kathy Chatterton won High Woman in the 2009 National Sectional Championships for Standard Pistol and Conventional Pistol
  
• Viki Hendrickson won:
  2nd Place Washington State Indoor - and Top Woman 2008
  
   
  
• National record set by Les Baer team!  The team broke a 30 year old record last owned by the US Army Women's Team in .45 caliber pistol at the All-States Regional Championship, June 2005
  

Current Number of National Records won with our

Les Baer Pistols- 

36