New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

by bmac Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

Has anyone used the MantisX? http://mantisx.com/ It looks promising and is at a pretty good price point.

by **willnewton** Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:56 am

Austin, I have been playing with the update more and I think the Bullseye zoom feature needs some adjusting. There is too much zoom. It "contains" the yellow, but not the green and red, which are what you need to see as well. The zoom could contain the yellow, plus maybe two more rings, or maybe contain the trace from one second before and half second after.

The main thing about the zoom is the same issue it had before. Mainly that it cannot be set by the user and persist at that size. It always defaults back to too zoomed out or in. Even after you change the zoom on a shot, when you go back to look at it, the view has gone back to default.

It is a PITA the have to "fix" the zoom EVERY shot in bullseye mode. The current zoom is too tight to gain useful information at a glance and needs to be under user control, not software control. Right now, I'd settle for turning the Bullseye zoom off, because it actually hinders Bullseye mode.

Also, you can swipe left from the target trace mode and access a live trace that is kinda wierd because there is no target, just dots. Not sure what is going on there, but it is interesting to see the under the hood mechanics of the software in operation. It does seem calculation intensive on my iPad.

by Joe L Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:01 am

I agree with willnewton. Good points.
Joe

by MantisAustin Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:40 pm

Jack H wrote:
mspingeld wrote:The next thing: ETA on the 1911 magazine to mount the Mantis unit?

How would a device mounted on the heel of the gun give you results the same significance as when mounted at the muzzle?

Since the gun is a solid device throughout, and since we look at acceleration (rather than velocity), and gyroscopic movement (angles), the positioning doesn't matter. Physics works in our favor!

by MantisAustin Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:41 pm

1911 rail adapters for Wilson Combat magazines are available:
https://mantisx.com/collections/rail-adapters/products/1911-magazine-floor-plate-rail-adapter

by MantisAustin Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:43 pm

willnewton wrote:
I bet they would work fine for live fire on a non-cycling rail mount for a .22, but will the Mantis survive riding the slide on a .45 rib? Would it damage the Mantis? Throw off the calibration? Affect the slide cycling? I dont know, but is something to consider. Maybe Austin can comment before someone voids their warranty.

This is a fringe case we haven't tested yet. If you try it, and it breaks, we'll replace your Mantis unit for you for free. And then update our warranty verbiage to accommodate. Smile

by MantisAustin Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:45 pm

Joe L wrote:Just tried the new bullseye option. Seems to work fine. The trace time is almost too long, but maybe that is what i need to make myself calm done a little more prior to letting the hammer drop. If I get a chance this evening, I'll make a short demo of the new features.

Austin--can you post what the new trace times are and give us an idea of how the score is calculated? Is the score calculated from the same time period as before the update?

Also, I didn't notice any lag time in slow dry fire. Maybe it will show up in rapid fire, don't know yet.

Really appreciate the shot delete feature addition also.

Joe

Trace time is 3 seconds before, and 1 second after (red). Score calculation is the same as before (magnitude of movement in last split second of time).

by MantisAustin Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:50 pm

willnewton wrote:Austin, I have been playing with the update more and I think the Bullseye zoom feature needs some adjusting. There is too much zoom. It "contains" the yellow, but not the green and red, which are what you need to see as well. The zoom could contain the yellow, plus maybe two more rings, or maybe contain the trace from one second before and half second after.

The main thing about the zoom is the same issue it had before. Mainly that it cannot be set by the user and persist at that size. It always defaults back to too zoomed out or in. Even after you change the zoom on a shot, when you go back to look at it, the view has gone back to default.

It is a PITA the have to "fix" the zoom EVERY shot in bullseye mode. The current zoom is too tight to gain useful information at a glance and needs to be under user control, not software control. Right now, I'd settle for turning the Bullseye zoom off, because it actually hinders Bullseye mode.

Also, you can swipe left from the target trace mode and access a live trace that is kinda wierd because there is no target, just dots. Not sure what is going on there, but it is interesting to see the under the hood mechanics of the software in operation. It does seem calculation intensive on my iPad.

Thanks for the feedback! We'll make some adjustments and push it out.

The "live trace" is an easter egg of sorts. We found that some people don't understand the basics of accelerometers/gyros and movement tracking, so we threw that in there to help us, instructors, dealers, etc. easily show people "hey, look - when I move the gun left, it shows I go left!" It's significantly downsampled, and not really intended for anything else besides explaining to someone how it works in words other than geekspeak and "magic."

by Joe L Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:57 pm

Here is a short demo comparing the normal settings with the bullseye specific settings. Just for reference. Dry fire until Sunday.

by **willnewton** Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:07 pm

MantisAustin wrote:This is a fringe case we haven't tested yet. If you try it, and it breaks, we'll replace your Mantis unit for you for free. And then update our warranty verbiage to accommodate.

I might take you up on that when I get back from vacation. Twisted Evil

@Joe- Nice video Joe!

by Magload Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:00 pm

That looks a lot like the trace I get with my SCATT Basic now. I like it. Don

by Joe L Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:08 pm

I've been experimenting with the MantisX a little more this week. I also put an anti-glare screen protector on my iPhone. Here is a link to a fresh video comparing the bullseye and standard modes. The video won't finish uploading until close to 10pm central daylight time.

I know now what I think would be great for me for practice while viewing the trace on an iPhone. For me, I need the three rings shown in the bullseye mode with the trace durations of the standard mode. The traces are displayed too small for me in the standard mode and the traces are too busy in the bullseye mode, that is, there is too much data displayed in the bullseye mode. For me. At my skill level.

So, Austin, I would very much like to see two options that could be set by the user. The first option is the amount of used in the display. New shooters with a lot of motion may need the full screen view, the default for the original mode. But more experienced shooters need to zoom in on only 2 or 3 three rings, not the full screen. This would give the shooter a decent trace size that is viewable while dry firing without stopping to zoom in manually or otherwise touch the iPhone.

The second option would be to choose the trace durations. I can't use the amount of trace information displayed for the bullseye mode. Maybe others can. I need the duration of the standard mode. For now. Maybe for slow fire, I'll use the longer bullseye durations. I want to be able to choose between the two mode durations as a minimum, and others may benefit from having maybe 2 more presets for durations in between the standard and bullseye durations.

That's all I have for now. If Mantis can make those changes to the iPhone app, I'll be happy to make another video demonstrating the options.

Thanks,
Joe

by Magload Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:20 pm

That is the same problem I have with my SCATT Basic. The trace times makes the screen look like a bowl of colored spaghetti. I believe with the more advanced SCATT you get the option to adjust those times. I havn't tried the BE mode on my MantisX yet.

by Joe L Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:51 am

I'm hoping Austin will chime in again this week. I'm enjoying the device, but the app will benefit from some tweaks to allow the steadier shooters to get the greatest benefit without fiddling with their phone while shooting. I think the device and original concept are super good, especially for dry fire, which is exactly what I need.

Joe

by MantisAustin Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:00 pm

Thanks for all the feedback! We'll continue to work on some modifications to make it primed perfectly for y'all.

Cheers!
Austin

by bdas Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:58 am

Austin,

I got my MantisX last Friday (I said I'd buy one if you added bullseye mode and I could work out some mounting options, and so I did). First and foremost, I wanted to reinforce and confirm what the other users who have posted in this thread said... the MantisX works as described, and provides useful feedback.

Obviously my experience with it is limited at this point (dry fire only so far), but the main thing I'd like to see is the ability to set up individual user profiles. This would allow/enable many usability improvements, like keeping my shot history separate from another user's shot history, and allowing each user to select appropriate trace times (green and red durations, at least) and trace screen zoom level to match their ability level.

I also noticed that it properly recorded about 8 out of 10 dry fire shots with my 1911, which is good, but not great. What can I do to help improve that (I vaguely recall reading something about a special recording mode for this, but I don't see it in the app)?

I'm also looking forward to seeing how it can be used to help the junior shooters that I coach. Do you have any experience/suggestions/insights for using it as a coaching tool (beyond the obvious use case of simply letting them shoot with it, sitting down and going through their string of shots with them and making suggestions, and letting them shoot with it again to see if they implemented the suggested changes successfully)? This coaching role is another reason to want separate user profiles (and more than just 2 or 4).

Dave

by MantisAustin Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:12 pm

Dave,

1) We're getting closer on user profiles (where they log in/log out). There is a simple alternative approach that a number of instructors use currently. In the settings, where you select a gun you are using, you can "add" a gun. Instead of a gun, you could add a person, and then filter the history by that person.

2) There is an app called the MantisX Data Recorder that you can collect data with and send to us to improve our algorithms. Usually dry fire recording is 95%+.

3) We're working to develop some coaching aids. Every instructor has their own methodology, so achieving unanimity is a hard goal, but that is in progress - we will let you know once released.

Thanks for the feedback!

by bdas Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:56 am

MantisAustin wrote:1) We're getting closer on user profiles (where they log in/log out). There is a simple alternative approach that a number of instructors use currently. In the settings, where you select a gun you are using, you can "add" a gun. Instead of a gun, you could add a person, and then filter the history by that person.

2) There is an app called the MantisX Data Recorder that you can collect data with and send to us to improve our algorithms. Usually dry fire recording is 95%+.

I'll try adding a new "gun" for other users for now.

I did not try to use my MantisX with the juniors this weekend, because on Thursday night, I tried it on my .22, and it only recorded about 75% of the shots in live fire. It seemed to identify the shots just fine in slow fire, but in Timed it got 9 out of 10 and 8 out of 10, and in Rapid it got 7 out of 10 and 5 out of 10. That's low enough that it's impossible to correlate the shots on paper with the shots recorded by the MantisX. That definitely needs to improve.

One of the main reasons why I got the MantisX is because I tend to have 8 or 9 good shots on a target, and 1 or 2 bad ones. I really wanted to see the traces for the bad shots (and see how they differ from the good shots). But in one of my timed fire targets, I shot eight 10s, one 9, and one 7, but I could not immediately identify which shot was the 7 by browsing through the traces (maybe because that was one of the shots that it didn't record?). So, I'm struggling to see how the traces are useful. That 7 should stand out like a sore thumb.

Dave

by MantisAustin Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:04 pm

Dave - thanks for the feedback. If you download the Data Recorder app and send us some data, that will help us determine why you're missing shots. For live fire, shot detection is typically 99%+ (unless there is very rapid fire or other high movement), so this seems a bit of an anomaly that we'd like to get to the bottom of.

To see the "worst" shots, the best starting place is probably the 2nd screen, which gives you the shot scores sequentially. You can see which shot was your lowest one, and click on that, which pulls up the trace for that shot. I hope that helps!

Austin

by bdas Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:29 am

MantisAustin wrote:Dave - thanks for the feedback. If you download the Data Recorder app and send us some data, that will help us determine why you're missing shots. For live fire, shot detection is typically 99%+ (unless there is very rapid fire or other high movement), so this seems a bit of an anomaly that we'd like to get to the bottom of.

To see the "worst" shots, the best starting place is probably the 2nd screen, which gives you the shot scores sequentially. You can see which shot was your lowest one, and click on that, which pulls up the trace for that shot. I hope that helps!

Austin

I'll get the Data Recorder app, and send the data along. It has occurred to me that part of the problem might be that I'm using a fairly heavy pistol (over 4lbs) shooting standard velocity 22 ammo with a decent grip. So, if the MantisX is expecting a large amount of recoil movement when set to detect live fire, it might not be seeing what it expects.

It's funny that you mention trying to find the worst shots by score, because I found that it didn't always correlate. Don't get me wrong... for most shots, the MantisX score correlates reasonably well to shot quality. For my 2 slow, 2 timed, and 2 rapid targets, I shot 569/600 (one point shy of master) for a 94.8 average, and the MantisX gave me an average score of 93.4, which is pretty close. But the scores definitely do not correlate all the time. I had a slow fire shot that was an X, but the MantisX gave it a score of 77, because there was some wobble just before the shot went off. The yellow part of the trace was a small, short 'S' shape all inside the smallest ring. I was pretty happy with the shot, because I kept squeezing the trigger smoothly despite my little shake. But the MantisX attributed the pre-shot movement to poor trigger control, not a sudden, small shake in my wobble, and gave it a low score. That was the most extreme example, but there were several times that the MantisX scored what I thought were good, controlled shots as being low 90's, and what I thought were mediocre shots as being upper 90's. But I understand that the MantisX is trying to score trigger pull problems, and so the score is more about movement in the 1/4 sec before the bang, than how close the POA at bang time (the red X in the trace) is to the center of the rings on the trace, so I'm not too worried about the score numbers.

I've found that what I consider to be good shots generally have good traces, even if the score numbers are lower than I would have guessed. Looking at the scores and comparing them to the traces, though, it did occur to me to wonder what algorithm the MantisX is using to determine how to center the trace on the rings. It's not exactly where the yellow line begins, but always close to that point. I thought it might be that point modified by a weighted averaging of the yellow and green dots (with more weight for the yellow dots, or more weight for the dots closer in time to the start of the yellow), but even that didn't seem to always be the case.

by MantisAustin Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:05 am

Great assessment and info. MantisX scores are based on movement in the last 1/4 second. Some shooters are able to make corrections in that window of time, so scores don't always correlate with shot quality, but in aggregate they tend to. The MantisX scoring is also NOT based on bullseye scoring so you're 94.8 and 93.4 comparisons are purely coincidental.

You may try the dry fire or CO2 settings to see if shot detection is different given your unique combination of gun+ammo.

Centering is based loosely on averages and some other stuff. It's more for easier visualization than matching the target.

Cheers!
Austin

by bmac Sun May 07, 2017 10:01 am

MantisAustin wrote:1911 rail adapters for Wilson Combat magazines are available:
https://mantisx.com/collections/rail-adapters/products/1911-magazine-floor-plate-rail-adapter

This is great news! Will they work with other magazines, or just Wilson?

by Magload Sun May 07, 2017 1:24 pm

bmac wrote:
MantisAustin wrote:1911 rail adapters for Wilson Combat magazines are available:
https://mantisx.com/collections/rail-adapters/products/1911-magazine-floor-plate-rail-adapter

This is great news! Will they work with other magazines, or just Wilson?

Just ordered one what a awesome product. I have a Wilson mag that got the base plate blown off of it this will have a permanent home on that mag. Way better then mounting it somewhere else on the gun with a rail adapter. Don

by MantisAustin Mon May 08, 2017 9:15 am

It's designed just for the Wilson Combat versions.

We do have another adapter that will be coming out the week. It's a quasi-universal mount that adheres to the existing baseplate with VHB tape. We just discovered this remarkable stuff recently, but it's cemented on and holds up great in live fire as well. I'll keep you posted once it's out.

Cheers!
Austin

by bmac Mon May 08, 2017 10:02 am

MantisAustin wrote:It's designed just for the Wilson Combat versions.

We do have another adapter that will be coming out the week. It's a quasi-universal mount that adheres to the existing baseplate with VHB tape. We just discovered this remarkable stuff recently, but it's cemented on and holds up great in live fire as well. I'll keep you posted once it's out.

Cheers!
Austin

Thanks for the quick reply Austin, I went ahead and ordered the Wilson version and will pick up a mag locally.

by Joe L Tue May 09, 2017 12:49 pm

I'll be taping mine to a CZ-97 magazine if that will work. Also, Austin, is there another iPhone app update coming any time soon?

Joe

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