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.45 bullseye pistol 1.5 guarantee

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Jack H
Slartybartfast
willnewton
BE Mike
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mspingeld
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Richard Ashmore
scheibenpistole
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SW-52
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Post by SW-52 11/15/2016, 3:28 pm

i saw two brands of gun what guarantee 1.5 groups at 50 yards and the ammo they mention is federal match. i have a range officer,super accurate and mega close groups,is possible a range officer make 1.5 groups at 50 yards or is the ammo??? thanks!
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Post by Jon Eulette 11/15/2016, 3:38 pm

It is very doubtful that a stock RO could repeatedly shoot 1.5" groups at 50 yds with any ammunition.
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Post by SW-52 11/15/2016, 3:55 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:It is very doubtful that a stock RO could repeatedly shoot 1.5" groups at 50 yds with any ammunition.
Jon
thank you jon.
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Post by Chris Miceli 11/15/2016, 4:24 pm

stock cost much less though.

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Post by james r chapman 11/15/2016, 4:43 pm

IMHO,if you can ransom/sandbag your gun, shoot 90 consecutive rounds into the 10/X ring from 50 yards, it's good enough for 95% of us.
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Post by Bubba Blaster 11/15/2016, 5:02 pm

james r chapman wrote:IMHO,if you can ransom/sandbag your gun, shoot 90 consecutive rounds into the 10/X ring from 50 yards, it's good enough for 95% of us.
+1 on what James Chapman says.
Very few shooters can shoot to the potential of these 1 1/2 " guns . You would have to be a "human machine rest".

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Post by troystaten 11/16/2016, 6:14 am

Regarding the 1.5 inch guarantee of some pistols, my thoughts are that it is always nice to know that any shot outside of the 10 ring is because I missed not because the pistol was not accurate.

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Post by Jon Eulette 11/16/2016, 6:42 am

One of the benefits of having a pistol that will shoot 1.5 inch groups is when it comes to calling your shots. With decent ammunition in a good pistol you should be able to call your shots almost exactly when shooting slow fire at 50 yards. If you cannot call your shots then you're never going to get better has a bullseye shooter. In other words if you're shooting and you can't tell where the you shot at 10 at 3 o'clock or a 9 at 6 o'clock how do you know what a 10 looks like or feels like? So I'm of the opinion that in order to grow as a shooter you have to have equipment that is capable of giving you the feedback to grow. A novice or Marksman might not benefit right away from the better shooting gun but someone with more experience can grow faster in my opinion. But it takes more than then live fire of a good pistol to grow; you have to dry fire! I've recently been working with some new shooters and it's fun to see them start to call their shots. Fortunately for them they're shooting very good pistols. I believe the learning curve is faster with better equipment but it still requires work on the shooters part. So I don't believe you can buy points but it does help to have great equipment.
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Post by scheibenpistole 11/16/2016, 8:30 am

Very well said, Jon!

I like to think of inherent accuracy as a group size "amplifier".  It's not whether one can hold well enough to extract the full accuracy potential, it's what the accuracy potential does to worsen errors such as trigger control or the spread you can expect just through arc of motion with your hold.

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Post by Richard Ashmore 11/16/2016, 12:44 pm

SW-52 wrote:i saw two brands of gun what guarantee 1.5 groups at 50 yards and the ammo they mention is federal match. i have a range officer,super accurate and mega close groups,is possible a range officer make 1.5 groups at 50 yards or is the ammo??? thanks!

  I'll extrapolate from my visit to the Eley Customer Range.  I lot-tested Ely TENEX in three Hammerli pistols.

  For each pistol, I was able to find a lot of ammunition that would shoot groups less than one inch at fifty (50) meters.  The biggest groups were ~two (2) inches.

  Most important for this discussion- there was absolutely no correlation between how a particular lot of ammunition performed in one pistol compared to another, and TENEX has a reputation for being pretty consistent.

  Conclusion:  Each barrel is unique, each lot of ammunition is unique.  No doubt the maker of the pistol found a lot of ammunition that shot well in a particular barrel.  Unless you have access to a bunch of ammunition from that same lot, you may never see that result again.  Do your own testing with your own ammunition to know what to expect.cheers
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Post by Chris Miceli 11/16/2016, 12:59 pm

Richard Ashmore wrote:
SW-52 wrote:i saw two brands of gun what guarantee 1.5 groups at 50 yards and the ammo they mention is federal match. i have a range officer,super accurate and mega close groups,is possible a range officer make 1.5 groups at 50 yards or is the ammo??? thanks!

  I'll extrapolate from my visit to the Eley Customer Range.  I lot-tested Ely TENEX in three Hammerli pistols.

  For each pistol, I was able to find a lot of ammunition that would shoot groups less than one inch at fifty (50) meters.  The biggest groups were ~two (2) inches.

  Most important for this discussion- there was absolutely no correlation between how a particular lot of ammunition performed in one pistol compared to another, and TENEX has a reputation for being pretty consistent.

  Conclusion:  Each barrel is unique, each lot of ammunition is unique.  No doubt the maker of the pistol found a lot of ammunition that shot well in a particular barrel.  Unless you have access to a bunch of ammunition from that same lot, you may never see that result again.  Do your own testing with your own ammunition to know what to expect.cheers
I called the Eley test center in TX and they said they couldn't test semi auto pistols.....

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Post by ropsahl 11/16/2016, 1:19 pm

My SA Inc. Bullseye Wadcutter comes close but the flyer keeps it from being a 1.50 pistol and makes the ten 
shot group measure 1.67"

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Post by DavidR 11/16/2016, 2:57 pm

The more accurate the gun the closer to the X ring a shooter can shoot. Even if you shoot a 5 it will be closer to the X than a 4'' gun would have put that same exact shot.
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Post by mspingeld 11/16/2016, 3:25 pm

Sometimes!

Example: A gun with a 3" group will print from 0" to 1-1/2" from point of aim in any direction. If my point of aim when the shot broke was the 10 ring line at 3 o'clock, the point of impact will be somewhere between the exact point of aim and 1-1/2" off in any direction, between an 8 and an X on a 50 yd target. That same shot with a 1-1/2" gun will print from 0" to 3/4" from point of aim, no lower than a 9. If the odds of adding a point to a shot are about 1/3 (assume 1/3 of shots end up further from center, 1/3 closer, 1/3 no change), a better gun could theoretically add 90 points in a 2700 match. (correction, if a 1/3 are closer & a 1/3 are further, no change in score)

I believe you can buy points. I do agree that time is best spent dry firing and improving one's wobble and fundamentals and don't be discouraged from participating because you can't buy the best gun available. Buy the best you can afford and enjoy. When you're ready, if funds allow, sell that Ruger and upgrade to the Pardini! You'll buy some points and help the next guy/gal join in our fun.

Just my 2 cents.


Last edited by mspingeld on 11/16/2016, 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : discovered inaccuracy in my analysis)

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Post by DavidR 11/16/2016, 4:04 pm

mspingeld wrote:Sometimes!

Example: A gun with a 3" group will print from 0" to 1-1/2" from point of aim in any direction. If my point of aim when the shot broke was the 10 ring line at 3 o'clock, the point of impact will be somewhere between the exact point of aim and 1-1/2" off in any direction, between an 8 and an X on a 50 yd target. That same shot with a 1-1/2" gun will print from 0" to 3/4" from point of aim, no lower than a 9. If the odds of adding a point to a shot are about 1/3 (assume 1/3 of shots end up further from center, 1/3 closer, 1/3 no change), a better gun could theoretically add 90 points in a 2700 match.

I believe you can buy points. I do agree that time is best spent dry firing and improving one's wobble and fundamentals and don't be discouraged from participating because you can't buy the best gun available. Buy the best you can afford and enjoy. When you're ready, if funds allow, sell that Ruger and upgrade to the Pardini! You'll buy some points and help the next guy/gal join in our fun.

Just my 2 cents.
I stated for the exact same shot... As in if all things were exactly equal for both shots.
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Post by mspingeld 11/16/2016, 4:12 pm

David, I don't mean to sound argumentative. Just conversation.

In theory, and very randomly, a 4" gun could actually improve a shot more than a 1-1/2" gun. In my example above, the shot on the 10 ring at 3 o'clock. The 4" gun could put the shot 2" closer to center. The 1-1/2" gun could, at best, only put it 3/4" closer.

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Post by Richard Ashmore 11/16/2016, 8:08 pm


I called the Eley test center in TX and they said they couldn't test semi auto pistols.....
I neglected to mention that I went to England, back when Bert Brooke's was the CRO of the customer range in Birmingham. Since then Eley moved and Bert passed away.  He came with me to Camp Perry for eight years and met lots of nice folks.
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Post by Froneck 11/17/2016, 3:02 am

Using a gun that shoots a large group so that any error by the shooter will improve the shot is not a good idea! Yes the large group can put a 9 in the 10 ring but it can also put that 9 in the 7 ring. As Jon said we shooter are not machine rests but the path to being a better shooter is to see exactly where you hit the target. If you make an error and the large grouping gun puts the shot in the X you have learned how to shoot bad. You with them repeat what was done that resulted in the X but now the gun shoots the opposite  side of the group and you get a 6 and confused why. The small grouping gun is the best to learn to shoot with!

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Post by BE Mike 11/17/2016, 3:29 pm

Bill Blankenship addresses this in "The Pistol Shooter's Treasury". He said that a shooter had a gun that would shoot really tight groups and Bill said he knew that his pistol wouldn't shoot that good. Bill ended up winning the match and decided not to listen to all the hype any more. In precision pistol shooting it is the shooter, not the equipment, as long as, one has a reasonably accurate gun/ammo combination.
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Post by willnewton 11/17/2016, 3:54 pm

BE Mike wrote:Bill Blankenship addresses this in "The Pistol Shooter's Treasury". He said that a shooter had a gun that would shoot really tight groups and Bill said he knew that his pistol wouldn't shoot that good. Bill ended up winning the match and decided not to listen to all the hype any more. In precision pistol shooting it is the shooter, not the equipment, as long as, one has a reasonably accurate gun/ammo combination.

My Hammerli 215 talks tough from the sandbag, but it only has pipe dreams of beating the "lowly" Ruger Mark II that trounces it on a weekly basis and calls it names.

And that Mark III with a bad attitude.
And an especially unruly X-esse, whose purchase was funded by the sale of the 215 to me.

 Ouch man!
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Post by Slartybartfast 11/17/2016, 5:55 pm

willnewton wrote:My Hammerli 215 talks tough from the sandbag, but it only has pipe dreams of beating the "lowly" Ruger Mark II that trounces it on a weekly basis and calls it names.

And that Mark III with a bad attitude.
And an especially unruly X-esse, whose purchase was funded by the sale of the 215 to me.

 Ouch man!
As someone who is completely new to precision pistol shooting the above is confounding. Some say buy the best you can afford, some say start with a "beginner's" pistol to learn the basics, some are even dismissive of whether a new shooter "deserves" to use a high end pistol without first proving themselves.

But precious few can describe what it is that makes a Ruger Mark beat a Hamerelli or Pardini or what makes one pistol better suited to a person over another. Or how to identify when to blame the gun or the shooter.
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Post by DavidR 11/17/2016, 6:15 pm

mspingeld wrote:David, I don't mean to sound argumentative. Just conversation.

In theory, and very randomly, a 4" gun could actually improve a shot more than a 1-1/2" gun. In my example above, the shot on the 10 ring at 3 o'clock. The 4" gun could put the shot 2" closer to center. The 1-1/2" gun could, at best, only put it 3/4" closer.
I understand it could, if something in that shot was different. I just meant if everything was exactly the same it would not.
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Post by DavidR 11/17/2016, 6:20 pm

Slartybartfast wrote:
willnewton wrote:My Hammerli 215 talks tough from the sandbag, but it only has pipe dreams of beating the "lowly" Ruger Mark II that trounces it on a weekly basis and calls it names.

And that Mark III with a bad attitude.
And an especially unruly X-esse, whose purchase was funded by the sale of the 215 to me.

 Ouch man!
As someone who is completely new to precision pistol shooting the above is confounding. Some say buy the best you can afford, some say start with a "beginner's" pistol to learn the basics, some are even dismissive of whether a new shooter "deserves" to use a high end pistol without first proving themselves.

But precious few can describe what it is that makes a Ruger Mark beat a Hamerelli or Pardini or what makes one pistol better suited to a person over another. Or how to identify when to blame the gun or the shooter.
It still stands buy the best you can afford and then learn the basics. As to deserving something thats dumb. You work for your money what you decide to invest in the sport is nobodys business except maybe your wife's lol!
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Post by mspingeld 11/17/2016, 6:24 pm

Most quality 22s (Ruger, Hammerli, Pardini, etc.) can shoot accurately enough to make you a high master. The differences are the grip, the weight distribution and, very importantly, the trigger. Very subjective.

Like David says, buy the best you can afford and learn the basics. While you're doing that, you will undoubtedly get a chance to handle many different guns and talk to many different people about their preferences.

(and, welcome to the obsession!)

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Post by Richard Ashmore 11/17/2016, 7:36 pm

Slartybartfast wrote:


But precious few can describe what it is that makes a Ruger Mark beat a Hammerli or Pardini or what makes one pistol better suited to a person over another. Or how to identify when to blame the gun or the shooter.

  Ergonomics!  The grip, the trigger, the weight; all factor in to what makes one pistol more or less desirable than another.  It's worth looking at what the top shooter are using, and if there are a variety of pistols in your circle of friends, ask to try as many as you can.  Mechanically, they'll all shoot 10-Ring or smaller groups.

  I've been a CRO at Camp Perry, so I'll share what I've seen there- Pardini is becoming more and more popular, and it's not an Italian plot to sell expensive pistols.  They are accurate, reliable, and have a great trigger.  Marvel conversions have a following, and I've seen a lot of them at Camp Perry, too.  Model 41's have their following, and many championships have been won with a Model 41.  The Hammerli 208s is a great pistol, but is out of production. 

  Local laws may affect what you can buy- Connecticut characterizes Pardini as a "dangerous assault weapon," for example.  

  Hope this is helpful.
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