Center Fire Gun Recommendation for Wife with Shoulder Issues

First topic message reminder :

My wife has been shooting league with me and doing very well. She shoots a Hammerli Xesse and likes it but she won't shoot center fire because my 45 has too much recoil. She's had a couple of shoulder surgeries in the past and even with the 22, she can't shoot more than 30 or 40 rounds (league is 30 shots per match).

What's the softest center fire gun you would recommend that can accept a dot and still shoot straight? Must be light weight as well. I offered her a Pardini but she says mine is too heavy.

Thanks for the help!

I'm at 48.35 oz loaded with a full length dust cover and a pretty solid slide on my 45

Christopher Miceli wrote:I'm at 48.35 oz loaded with a full length dust cover and a pretty solid slide on my 45

Come on Chris, tell the whole story! ;l)
That slide was internally lightened to match standard 5" slide weight. Then KC's cut removes close to 3 oz. Totts mount is steel so puts a little back on it.
Jon the Trouble Maker

Haha, that is all true jon.  But i don't have ball cut on slide or front cocking serrations

In a "what the heck" moment and with a little free time on my hands I decided to weigh and photo the other options that have been mentioned. I also added the 952-2 to the mix. The short barrel version with a micro would be another good choice.

R.O. 9/38 super, naked with 130gr L-SWC. Extra steel in barrel makes it heavier then same pistol in .45. You would have to add 9.4 oz to this weight to compare it to the .45 R.O. with different grips, trigger shoe, rail and 1" ultradot. I weighed extras to get it exact. The 9/38 super would weigh 52.2 set up the same. Except ammo is a lot lighter


Kimber 38 super, stainless, 1" ultradot and 130gr L-SWC with 6" barrel

952-2 9mm, 1" ultradot and 115gr L-SWC

R.O. 45acp, 1" ultradot with 185gr L-SWC

My good wife of many decades loves handgun competitions.  However, she has also has a weak left arm, is right handed, and has a weak right wrist.  For IDPA in 4.1 inch and under division, she shoots 9mm PPQ-M2 4" with required iron sights and even with that pistol the pistol moves a lot in recoil.  Shot Springfield Range Offices 9mm with slide mounted (high) red-dot sight for CF bullseye.  So-so at 50 yards, but difficult to recover after shots at 25 yards.  She has practiced a few times with new Walther Q5 9mm  5" that is cut for red-dot sight (Venom).  Lots of pistol movement after shot.  Mind, it is not uncomfortable, but still poor recovery after shot and hard to call shot.  
And then at a bullseye practice (indoor) a fellow team member had her shoot his heavy, high-shelf, 1911 in 45ACP with frame-mounted sight, very light spring, and very light loads.  She proceeds to cover the black at 50 feet with the first shot a solid X.  . . . and the ark of the pistol after fireing was much less that what I have seen.  Team member sent her home with a box of his light reloads to try in an old Colt, series 80, Mark IV Gold Cup that I acquired rather by chance many years ago - has a frame mounted old red-dot sight.  At home, she immediately noted that the GC has a good balance and OK trigger, but that she just can not rack it nor deal with its controls.  Then yesterday we go to big gun show:  did not care for new R51 (most strange trigger I have felt); thought FNS-9C trigger was too hard; liked a Browning 380 with long barrel, but could not see adding another round to reloading task; and then while trying a P938 she disclosed that she really wanted nothing to do with hammer fired pistols - striker fired were her cup-of-tea.  

So:  mindful that bullseye CF pistol needs to carry a red-dot sight and that we are deep into 9mm Luger cartridges, she extrapolated from her success with very light 45 ACP in 1911 to the thought that we should try a much reduced load in Q5 and/or in another striker 9mm that can carry a red-dot.  Have been using 5 grains of WSF and either Berry 115 HB or HAP 115.  The recoil physics indicate a desire for a more heavy pistol and a reduction in the bullet mass times velocity (recoil proportional to the square of the momentum).  Have ordered some 90 grain bullets.
I could overhaul her G34 Gen4 MOS (Venom mounted) with aftermarket trigger and guts.  S&W has a pistol with cut for red-dot that I know nothing about and perhaps other "MOS" accurate, striker-fired pistols exist.

So, what else should I try?   Thanks.   Mac

Jerry Keefer has built a m52 and 1911(45) for a female shooter with a lot of progressive bullseye ideas such as frame mounts slide lightening and fast twist barrels to shoot lighter loads more accurately. 

He has freely posted much of his work in this forum gotta dig a little bit for it.

Why striker fired and not hammer fired?  That decision alone takes away almost every bullseye pistol we've learned to make accurate with light loads, no matter the caliber.  Is it something about the hammer itself?

I'm not qualified to speak for Jerry. But my impression is that the guns in question combine many of the best features of PPC and a Bullseye Gunsmithing. 

Between the lightened slides and frame mounts, they can take loads that wouldn't cone close to operating a standard Pustol. My recollection for the 45 is that the load is below 3.0 of BE. The details are here on the forums. 

One thing that really interests me is the AL barrel shroud for the Pardini SP. That pistol is impressive.

jmdavis wrote:I'm not qualified to speak for Jerry. But my impression is that the guns in question combine many of the best features of PPC and a Bullseye Gunsmithing. 

Between the lightened slides and frame mounts, they can take loads that wouldn't cone close to operating a standard Pustol. My recollection for the 45 is that the load is below 3.0 of BE. The details are here on the forums. 

One thing that really interests me is the AL barrel shroud for the Pardini SP. That pistol is impressive.

Where is Jerry anyway, he should be partaking in the these discussions...

How did you mount that Aimpoint looks clever.

rich.tullo wrote:How did you mount that Aimpoint looks clever.

Those are Keefer guns built for one if his customers. Which aimpoint you asking about ?

Actually the one on the M52

rich.tullo wrote:Actually the one on the M52

i believe a pad is silver soldered and bolted to the frame, then the mount is added. David Sams sells a mount for the 1911.
 

I have the same shoulder issues. I started using a Hammerli 280 with both uppers, 22/32 S&W L.
The weight of the gun is what I like most plus recoil in almost nothing.

Since Jerry's pistols are unobtanium now. How about a 1911 made by Browning in 380 acp that has been reduced in size and weight. These are kind of neat looking. http://www.gunsandammo.com/first-look/first-look-browning-1911-380-2/

I had a detailed response, but the computer ate it when I hit "Send."

Wife tried the long-slide Browning in 380 and thought it fit hand, could be racked, and then announced that she just did not want anything to do with a hammer - only with striker-fired pistols.  . . . and mentioned that we have a lot of effort tied into reloading 9mm.  In any case, even if she were to use the long-slide 380, it still needs a red-dot sight to be mounted.  Well I remember the effort and expense of getting red-dot sights on our 9mm range Officers.  Much of the discomfort came from the unique rear cut of the RO.  

As our Christmas presidents, we have now acquired one of essentially each viable striker-fired 9mm that has provision for red-dot.
I will eventually provide details as others reading this may, for whatever reason, also decided that striker-fired is their cup-of-tea.
Walther Q5; P320 RX, S&W M&P 9L CORE, and Glock G34 Gen4 MOS.  I have no interest in working with the Croatian XD-M OSP.  

The M&P and G34 need work.  Have KKM barrel for Glock as its factory barrel has much too fast a twist.  Thes are for Bullseye CF competition.  We have other options for IDPA and bowling pin.

Most bullseye competitors have (have had?) large hands and significant strength.  Clearly, 1911 will continue to work for them.  Think change of initial conditions to smaller hands and weaker wrists.

An additional thought has appeared from reading the NRA rules (March 2016).  Chapter 3 of the rules indicated the porting/compensators are prohibited in the Production category.  I see no such prohibition under rule 3.2 for Any CF.  Opinions?  I have never fired a ported pistol nor fired one with a compensator, but the physics is apparent and might assist with recoil.  Mac

P.S. a fellow team member mentioned the 952 (out of production for something like 5 years).  Priced as used pistol way too high and one still needs to craft a red-dot mounting.

Mac2
I have big hands and strong wrists but I still like shooting all calibers. I already figured out how to mount a scope on the long barreled Browning. I would modify the existing rear sight to accept a micro. You don't have to search for a mount for the 952. BME makes one that replaces the rear sight. No drilling or tapping for that one. I never felt it was robust enough so I made one out of a mount for a octagon barrel Marlin. The top of the 952 is perfectly flat. Drilling and tapping was required but this mount is tough. They (952s) are getting pretty spendy now. On the plus side. I have an extra BME mount if someone needs it.

Regarding compensators, I think you will find that with our wimpy softball bullseye loads their effect is very minimal.  If that were not the case we would all be using them.

Dr.Don wrote:Regarding compensators, I think you will find that with our wimpy softball bullseye loads their effect is very minimal.  If that were not the case we would all be using them.

Don is right. Comps need gas to work. I'm building a comped 9 right now specifically for Atlanta Arms ammo. That's fairly stout load. It'll work or not
Jon

Indeed.  Very well observed that if porting with light Bullseye loads worked, such would be common.
Thanks for the observation.  
Expect 90 grain 9mm bullets to arrive today and might be able to test - one at a time - to see what it takes to group at 25 yards (and to reach 50 yards).  Will have to guess about weight of WSF to use.  If Bullseye was as popular as "action" shooting, more choices would exist.  Mac

I have tried many different bullets in both an XDM Competition and a Range Officer.  I had trouble finding a bullet that went where I called it. One that always gave very good results at 840 fps range was Hornady's 147 gr FMJ boat tail.  Lately I have been shooting Sierra's 90 gr. JHP.  This bullet has been one of the best I have found for bullseye.  With a slide-mounted 30 mm Ultradot, I have to load it to around 1250 fps to function the gun, but it is a very accurate load.  And with my equipment configuration, the recoil is minimal.  That bullet weight is less than a .32, but it has a larger scoring diameter.

Thanks Mike.  At a gathering of competitive pistol shooters, opinions on this topic were all over the map.  One contended that it was not possible to get 9mm to shoot well in Bullseye.  One said that he liked 147 lead (solid, in other words) with 3.3 grains of WSF.  Others were of the opinion that 115 bullets should minimize recoil and assist recovery.  The art of 45ACP bullseye plus 1911 is well established.  Army - with great effort and expense - managed to get the (ugg) M9 to shoot 9mm - but, other than rebuilding the pistol, it is a secret about how they dealt with loads.  Thus 9mm CAN be made to shoot even at 50 yards.  
The 90 grain 9mm bullets that I now have are H's fancy JHP, but I will look for the same sort from Sierra.  Clearly, JHP or HB bullets are longer than solid bullets.

One can not but wonder if the lack of 9mm "jokes-by-number" (compared to 45ACP) is telling me something.  We may be able in bullseye to learn more about accurate 9mm from the action side as they increase use of red-dot sights.
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2016/12/5/gearing-up-for-carry-optics/

Thanks,   Mac

For all the difficulties in getting a 9 to shoot well, I think a better approach is to consider a 38 Super 1911.  Years ago the IPSC crowd figured out how to get them to be reliable and shoot.  I think that the round would be easier to load for as well.  I'd set it up to shoot 147 grain bullets at 700 to 800 fps so a quick twist would be needed.  Basically duplicating the 38 wadcutter.

+1 on the super

I run a slide mounted dot gun with 126gr Dardus SWC with excellent results. Kart barrel.  3.6 - 3.8 Bullseye...

I have owned several 38 special wad guns and my super runs just as soft..

very easy to get under 2" at the long line with random bullets. if you weight sort then groups get better.