NOOB, learning a new sport

Poked around a bit on the forum, started reading and came across this little gem.

Yes, all this emphasis on accuracy is necessary to score well. The best shooters will "clean" slow-fire targets occasionally, and even an average shooter can see the difference between an 8-ring gun and an X-ring gun. If your gun and ammunition can't hold the X- or 10-ring, you don't have a prayer of ever shooting a perfect slow-fire target. Even if you're not capable of shooting a perfect score, you will still score better with topnotch iron and ammo. 


Kind of disheartening right off the bat.


Ron

Disheartening? More like brutally honest, and that can be a good thing. Say your pistol / ammo combo is capable of only 6 inch groups at 50 yards. Your first thought may be, well that will hold the black. No, it won't. Add to that 6 inch group the wobble zone of a beginning shooter, oh, let's say another 6 inches. Now you have 12 inch groups at that 50 yards. Add to that the occasional lapse of concentration, the occasional jerked trigger, and you're lucky to hit paper at 50 yards. But, have a pistol / ammo combo of 2 inches, and now you can hold the black at 50 yards, even with that 6 inch wobble zone.

Not that I can hold the black at 50 yards myself, but I know my equipment is capable of it. The more negatives you take out of the equation, the better chance you'll have at advancing.

So, in essence what this statement points out is in order to compete, I need to spend thousands on my first day, to take all the negatives out and then learn how to use my purchase ?

Absolutely not. A good gun like the range officer is enough to get you started and, with a little gunsmithing down the road can take you to high master. A reasonably priced 22 like the Ruger MK IV and you're well on your way. There are also a lot of bargains around on the used market. Jump in, learn and, if you become obsessed (like most of us), you can upgrade gradually. Anything you bought can be sold to the next guy so you can recoup a lot of your investment. Please don't let money keep you from trying this great sport.

I started shooting pistol using a Ruger MKIII. I got to a point where my 25 yard slow fire groups were consistently good but 50 yards left something to be desired. It was a rut I was stuck in for some time. A plateau of sorts. 

Eventually I decided to try a different gun. To this day I'm still not convinced my MKIII with it's stock barrel is capable of allowing a shooter to excel in this sport. It's a good entry level gun at best. But I immediately saw better groups at 50 when I switched to a S&W Model 41 Stock.

Now, since the 41, I shoot a Nelson and again I'm seeing better groups. Less flyers. But over time I've also progressed as a pistol shooter. 

If you can shoot well enough, (and you don't have to be a master to see this) you'll see a difference in how guns shoot. When comparing guns that are capable of taking a shooter to the top and guns that are starters at best you will see how they shoot differently.


EDIT: 

I'm going add that I completely agree with the above posts about buying an RO and a Ruger. My Ruger served me well until I was ready for a good 22. And my Ruger lasted me a LONG time! Several years actually. And my Range Officer stock took me into expert class. Now my RO is a dedicated lower for my Nelson and I have a Springfield Mil Spec being turned into a Wad Gun. You start out where you can. Learn to shoot. Learn to call your shots. Learn the sport. ENJOY! And when you see a shot and call it a 10 or a 9 and it's not but you were certain. Then maybe it's time to experiment and see what a better gun gives you. 

But most everyone I know started with starter guns. Because they couldn't afford or were afraid to invest so much up front. And those shooters now shoot different guns and classify higher but they all started the same. Me too. 

I still have and keep the Ruger MKIII as a back up. It saved my butt last season when my Nelson turned into a jam-o-matic on the line. I switched out after the NMC and shot TF and RF with the Ruger. Shot a 98 and 99's back to back the rest of the way.

Welcome to the forum Multiracer/Ron;

Could you post the thread of your little gem ?
Since you are new here, it could have been a tongue in cheek statement.

50% of your little gem is not accurate.

So, lets start over and get you into shooting precision.
If not, so be it.
I would hope your mind is not made up already just from reading internet threads ?

Clarence

Multiracer wrote:So, in essence what this statement points out is in order to compete, I need to spend thousands on my first day, to take all the negatives out and then learn how to use my purchase ?

No. Start with a .22 and ammo capable of 2 inches or less at 50 yards. Ruger, Browning, Beretta, many more out there. That will only set you back $3-400. No one said you need three guns to enjoy Bullseye. Even at Perry you can compete in a full 2700 with just a .22. Then when you feel comfortable, decide you like the sport, and have saved some money, buy a good used .45 for $1000 and your ready.

Multiracer wrote:So, in essence what this statement points out is in order to compete, I need to spend thousands on my first day, to take all the negatives out and then learn how to use my purchase ?

Partly that depends on what you mean by "compete".  Unless you're some sort of pistol prodigy, you won't be shooting scores that are similar to the top shooters on your first day, even if you have the best equipment in the world.  In a match, however, you're competing against other shooters in your classification, so you only have to be competitive with those folks.  Unless your gun is horrifically inaccurate, for a while the problem will be you, not your equipment.  Once your best groups are as good as you get when you're resting the gun on a sandbag, then your equipment is the problem.

Lots of people will tell you that you are "better off" starting with good equipment, and they are right.  You will progress faster, partly due to confidence that your gear is not holding you back, and partly because you'll know that the shots (good or bad) are due to your abilities/problems, and not your equipment inaccuracies.  So, if you have thousands to spend on your first day, you WILL be better off.  But that does not mean that you have to do that, and indeed, that's not what I recommend to most people.

My recommendation is to start with a .22 only.  I happen to like my Buckmark, others like Rugers, and there are certainly other viable choices under $500.  All the Buckmarks I've tried (more than 10 of them now) are plenty accurate to get you started, even completely stock (not that they cannot be improved, but the point is that you don't HAVE to drop hundreds of additional dollars into them to be "competitive" on day one). Shoot your .22 in a league if you can, and in matches (most of the matches around me are happy to let you shoot .22-only as long as there are enough ports).  Practice with it, and learn the fundamentals with it.  Do that for a few months/years.  By then you'll know whether you like Bullseye enough to invest more money in more & better guns, and you'll also have a better idea of what you're looking for in a bullseye pistol.  Besides, with a .22, the ammo is cheaper, and it's easier to learn the fundamentals without developing bad habits that the recoil of a bigger gun might encourage.  And, if you end up not loving bullseye (I don't understand it, but I've heard rumors that it's possible), you have still have a fun little gun that you can use for the rest of your life, not a race gun with no other viable use.  

So, that's my opinion about the best way to start shooting bullseye without investing too heavily on day one.

Multiracer wrote:So, in essence what this statement points out is in order to compete, I need to spend thousands on my first day, to take all the negatives out and then learn how to use my purchase ?

Try the sport at 50ft or 25 yards with a 22.  If you like it and do well upgrade your equipment, then come play with the big boys at 50 yards

Great stuff fellows, I am not put off by much. 
I will muddle my way in, I always do with whatever I set my mind to.
I only have access to an indoor 75 feet max range right now until the weather breaks.
I have been using a SW22 with some mods, wolf and Norma match ammo and 25 yard slowfire pistol targets made by Champion.
At 30 feet I can group all 10 in the 9 and the orange center, At 70 feet I can group 10 in the black 7 to center orange.
I have only been shooting for a few months and try to practice  twice a week. My second gun is a stock H&K 9mm.
Ron

Chris Miceli wrote:

Multiracer wrote:So, in essence what this statement points out is in order to compete, I need to spend thousands on my first day, to take all the negatives out and then learn how to use my purchase ?

Try the sport at 50ft or 25 yards with a 22.  If you like it and do well upgrade your equipment, then come play with the big boys at 50 yards

What do you mean by "then come play with the big boys at 50 yards" ?

I thought we all shot Bullseye at 50yds, 25yds outdoor and 50ft indoor.
Who the hell are the "big boys" ?
The answer...
We all are; no matter what we choose to shoot or the distance.
Just saying.

Clarence

So most indoor is at 50 feet ? But out door is 150 feet ?

C.Perkins wrote:

Chris Miceli wrote:

Multiracer wrote:So, in essence what this statement points out is in order to compete, I need to spend thousands on my first day, to take all the negatives out and then learn how to use my purchase ?

Try the sport at 50ft or 25 yards with a 22.  If you like it and do well upgrade your equipment, then come play with the big boys at 50 yards

What do you mean by "then come play with the big boys at 50 yards" ?

I thought we all shot Bullseye at 50yds, 25yds outdoor and 50ft indoor.
Who the hell are the "big boys" ?
The answer...
We all are; no matter what we choose to shoot or the distance.
Just saying.

Clarence

You're not one of the big boys...neither am I.

I

Multiracer wrote:So most indoor is at 50 feet ? But out door is 150 feet ?

Indoor sectionals are @ 50ft, normal 2700s are 50yard slow fire and timed rapid at 25yards.

Some clubs only shoot @50ft some clubs only shoot short course 2700 25yard targets

Chris Miceli wrote:

C.Perkins wrote:

Chris Miceli wrote:

Multiracer wrote:So, in essence what this statement points out is in order to compete, I need to spend thousands on my first day, to take all the negatives out and then learn how to use my purchase ?

Try the sport at 50ft or 25 yards with a 22.  If you like it and do well upgrade your equipment, then come play with the big boys at 50 yards

What do you mean by "then come play with the big boys at 50 yards" ?

I thought we all shot Bullseye at 50yds, 25yds outdoor and 50ft indoor.
Who the hell are the "big boys" ?
The answer...
We all are; no matter what we choose to shoot or the distance.
Just saying.

Clarence

You're not one of the big boys...neither am I.

I guess my statement went way above and over your head
Cheers.

C.Perkins wrote:

Chris Miceli wrote:

C.Perkins wrote:

Chris Miceli wrote:

Multiracer wrote: So, in essence what this statement points out is in order to compete, I need to spend thousands on my first day, to take all the negatives out and then learn how to use my purchase ?

Try the sport at 50ft or 25 yards with a 22.  If you like it and do well upgrade your equipment, then come play with the big boys at 50 yards

What do you mean by "then come play with the big boys at 50 yards" ?

I thought we all shot Bullseye at 50yds, 25yds outdoor and 50ft indoor.
Who the hell are the "big boys" ?
The answer...
We all are; no matter what we choose to shoot or the distance.
Just saying.

Clarence

You're not one of the big boys...neither am I.

I guess my statement went way above and over your head
Cheers.

I know I am one of the "big" guys. You guys are all tiny. One of my "friends" calls me Jupiter. Hmm, that's a gas giant isn't it. Maybe he is just telling me to stay away from the bean burritos.

Could you post the thread of your little gem ?
Since you are new here, it could have been a tongue in cheek statement.


This statement or "gem" can be found on the home page under the title An introduction to Bullseye....

Multiracer:

First off, thanks for trying out bullseye shooting, er, Precision Pistol now that the NRA has changed the name. 

I've been shooting bullseye and running matches for a number of years and if you check out my posts, I do seem to have some opinions on equipment, training and learning how to shoot bullseye.  

Now, I'd say most of that statement you posted is true, within a certain context; however the most important part is that with all the guns (expensive or custom), with all the extra equipment and over 100 years of sport, nobody has shot a perfect 2700 score yet in this sport.

Do you need good equipment and good ammo? Yes!   Do you need thousands of dollars and a couple year's wait to get that equipment. NO!  I have a standing offer to shoot against Master or below with a second year production, unmodified (read factory trigger, nothing added except some moly lube on the sear) Ruger Mark II with open sights for 10 shots slow fire at 50 yards. (Now, this was a safe queen gun, unmolested by barrel cleaning, home gunsmithing, or other "improvements".)  I started this when I heard the same comments from other shooters about equipment versus training when they started shooting.  (Most of the Rugers I have used will hold the 10 ring or better at 50 with the right ammo, and I have several that are loaned out to new shooters when needed.  And I know what scores they shot with the same gun when starting.  

I know some guns are crap, but in general a Ruger, Buckmark, or Marvel, etc. will let a shooter learn the basics and get most to Master with the the .22. 

So, anyway please disregard most of the impression of what is needed to get started shooting to be "competitive".  Being competitive is a state of action and mindset; not something picked up at the gun store or made by a gunsmith. You are what makes you competitive, and as for scoring better than other shooters, that's mostly a matter of training.

Anyway, for new shooters I do offer a complete list of my opinions, observations and assorted ramblings in the attached file. (Thanks to all those that helped me along the way.)  

Thanks for reading, good shooting and a I hope to see you at Perry some day.

Cecil Rhodes

Thanks,
I printed your ramblings out and will peruse them this weekend.
Ron

BTW... my first 22 can be seen over on the "show me your target pistol " thread.

Multiracer wrote:Could you post the thread of your little gem ?
Since you are new here, it could have been a tongue in cheek statement.


This statement or "gem" can be found on the home page under the title An introduction to Bullseye....

Multiracer;

That is a good article but just don't read too much into the equipment needed part.
Start shooting your .22; nice pistol by the way;and if you decide precision shooting is for you then start down the road.
It is a great journey, a great discipline which will reward you when you start gaining more experience.
Welcome to bullseye/precision.

Clarence

Wow, Cecil.  That .doc file needs to be stickied at the top of the fundamentals forum!  Good lessons.

I am new, but not as new as I used to be.  If I started over, I would ignore the existence of any gun except .22 and focus on shooting until I was about mid-expert, then add in .45.  While the .45 has been wonderful fun, introducing me to gunsmithing and reloading and the joy of shooting a big, solid gun, it has done almost nothing directly related to improving my skill at shooting X's.  I finally realized what a pleasant distraction it has been and decided to stop shooting it at matches and for live fire BE practice.  I do still dry fire with it and shoot it for fun, but focus only on .22 now.

I started with a Ruger 22/45, but never felt comfortable with it and had constant mechanical trouble.  I knew that I had been shooting BE a few months and liked it, so I purchased a used Hammerli from a shooting buddy.  It is a fantastic gun and I no longer feel like I am fighting the pistol.  I can focus on learning to shoot.

That being said, the guy next to me shoots an old Ruger Mark II, wins nearly every league night and when he is "on", shoots high 90's on the short line.

It ain't the gun, it's the shooter.

I agree that Cecil's 2008 missive should be a sticky!   I printed out a couple paragraphs that spoke to exactly what I need to work on.

Welcome Ron, I still shoot with a .22 BuckMark and learned a lot with that pistol and am still trying to get to a level where the pistol "might" be the limiting factor in my shooting.

I am going trial by fire in the morning. My first NRA match. Wish me luck.