Can we talk Wobble?

First topic message reminder :

If my reading and understanding of what I read is right as long as your trigger breaks with in your wobble area that is what you want.  That way you can keep the trigger moving and not try to snatch the shot when the dot is on the X ring.  Because that is not where the dot is going to be when the bullet clears the barrel.  Now what I want to know is I been right so far is when you all are shooting clean targets your wobble is all in the 10 ring?  Don

12XNPC wrote:As shorter barreled Model 41 would be a great start. That long 7 inch barrel is a killer.

If I knew then, what I know today, I would have wanted the 5.5 STC, instead of the 6.5 STC - but at the time, it was the only one they had available.  I guess I still can, but according to the website, they're available on back order.  

I do have a High Standard as well, which is certainly lighter, but while it had some reliability issues, the Model 41 hardly ever has an "issue".  I guess I should take them both to the range tomorrow.  

Hello mikemyers,

Everything else aside (not unimportant, just aside), bullseye is a strength contest.

Jim

spursnguns wrote:........Everything else aside (not unimportant, just aside), bullseye is a strength contest......

I sort of disagree.  Bullseye CAN be a strength contest.  Not for me.  I'm doing it because I enjoy it, not because I want to win and become famous.  For me, it's not even a "contest".  I go to the match, set up, do the appropriate things at the appropriate times (at least try to), and try to do well enough that *I* go home happy.  No matter how good I got, even if I was somehow able to get that good, there would always be others who could beat me.  That's not why I do it.  I enjoy the people.  I enjoy working on the guns.  I enjoy reloading.  I enjoy improving.  And I enjoy shooting, as long as things "work".  If I "suck", I can eventually figure out how to improve.  Oh, and I enjoy these forum discussions too!

I know what I'm writing probably sounds silly to many people reading it, most of whom want to WIN.  Heck, even if I could WIN here in Florida, then I'd need to Win at the nationals, and then at the Worlds.  There's no end to it.  I don't have all that "natural ability", if that's what it's called, and I can't devote my entire life to doing it.  To me, a "CONTEST" is just part of what make up Bullseye.  

I think for a lot of people, things are just as you say they are, it's all a contest, and the goal of a contest is to win.  Since I'm not trying to "win", just treating a Bullseye Match like "organized practice", I'm happy as long as I can continue to improve.   I would agree with you completely were you to change "is" to "can be" in your post.

When I was young and studly shooting my HS 106 Trophy 5.5" bull barrel, I added a weight I made from a 1" dia bolt.  1.8" long and weighing 6.1 oz.  Mounted forward under the barrel made it very stable.  Iron sights.  I used the two standard HS weights on the 7.25 fluted HS I was using as a FP
The standard HS weights for the 106 and 107 guns are 1.8oz and 2.7oz (on my scale) 

Dang.  I just realized I am a 'grand senior" shooter this year.

Hello mikemyers,

I was not referring to "contest" as in "winning" a contest.

Let me rephrase my statement....

Upper body strength is an important aspect of this sport.  If the weight of your pistol is too heavy for you, you will never improve.

Jim

spursnguns wrote:........Upper body strength is an important aspect of this sport.  If the weight of your pistol is too heavy for you, you will never improve........

Yep!!  That's why I will never be a good rifle shooter, as I can't even hold the durn things up!!

As to pistols, I'm not giving up on the Model 41, but I'll also see how my High Standard works for me.  

As was pointed out to me many times in this forum, before I get serious at getting better with a 1911, I need to first do it with a 22.
I want to try all the things you're all talking about with my larger guns, but first I've got a LOT more to learn with something smaller.

Thanks - hopefully my upper body strength will continue to improve as well, despite my feeling I used to be the 90 pound weakling in the Charles Atlas ads....   remember those?

Personally I think a 1911 with a 22 conversion has superior balance, you can weight it down with a 9000SC if you prefer a heavier gun. A 41 with a dot that far forward (even a micro dot) is more challenging to master. My 2 cents anyway.

mikemyers wrote:As was pointed out to me many times in this forum, before I get serious at getting better with a 1911, I need to first do it with a 22.
I want to try all the things you're all talking about with my larger guns, but first I've got a LOT more to learn with something smaller.

Try a .22 conversion on a 1911 if that is your goal. And keep the trigger pull weight the same for both...


Damn, I typed too slow

Jon Eulette wrote:Steering dot back into target after moving out of target (bull) leads to many bad things to execute the shot.

First time I can recall reading/hearing this very useful piece of advice, thank you.
I'm sure others have probably wrote something similar before, but this time it 'clicked' with me.

Thanks,
Doug

zanemoseley wrote:

Keyholed wrote:: i.e., you didn't AIM a 10 and shoot a 6 because your trigger pull sucks. 

I'm going to totally disagree with this. A flinch/yank/jerk can easily turn a sighted 10 into a 6 or far worse. Have you scored a new shooter that has complete misses? I guarantee you their aim isn't that bad, it's just that their trigger control/execution didn't allow them to realize their aiming potential. If you watch some of Brian's videos on YouTube he essentially makes this point when discussing trigger pull.

12XNPC wrote:You absolutely do aim a 10 and shoot a 6 because your trigger pull sucks.  That I the whole crux of trigger control. to aim a 10 and shoot a 10 because you didn't screw it up when you pulled the trigger. 

That's exactly my point. That's why I talk about it in relation to calling shots.

People have a perfectly-aimed, 10-ring shot, and the damn thing goes clean off the paper because their trigger pull screwed everything up. I have done exactly that (once). Lots of shooters think the aiming part is hard, or blame aim for misses and sub-par shots, but it just ain't so. And it's the hardest damn thing--how do you practice consistency when you're just not consistent? How do you even zero your pistol? People ask me about how I "hold so steady" (I don't), and although I can talk until I'm blue in the face, I can't convince them it's all in the trigger. And since they can't accept that, boom, they're stuck shooting 200s.

Conversely, I have shots where the dot isn't in the 10 in the last instant before the break, but they wound up as perfect punched-out-the-X shots (and were called as such) because the dot was moving in that direction. I don't think that's any different than normal, I just didn't "see" the dot right at the break. But it does tell me that not interrupting the natural movement of the dot is incredibly valuable.

zanemoseley wrote:Personally I think a 1911 with a 22 conversion is has superior balance, you can weight it down with a 9000SC if you prefer a heavier gun. A 41 with a dot that far forward (even a micro dot) is more challenging to master. My 2 cents anyway.

I agree, which is why I went with a home-built 1911 frame and a Nelson instead of spending the same--okay, less--on a used 41.

But hey, two whole points over my PB with my old Ruger Mk III was totally worth the grand!

(Non-sarcastically, though, it's a joy to own and shoot, especially with one of KC's triggers. And while my PB didn't climb much, my averages went way, way up.)

mikemyers wrote:What nobody seems to realize, is that when someone who isn't all that strong, and isn't all that young, decides to shoot one handed, the single biggest struggle is just to get strong enough to hold the gun reasonably still.

I can't hold to the black, but I can shoot 10s when I don't screw up the little things. In fact, some of my best scores were shot on days when I was dog-tired from driving or yard work or such. What that tells me is that my holding ability is secondary to relaxing, letting go, and focusing on executing the fundamentals (trigger, trigger, trigger, trigger, and trigger).

As for the rest, just focus on having fun and shooting often. I think making bullseye into a job only hurts your scores. That's why I don't read or post here in-season--every time I do, my scores fall or plateau because I start caring about them instead of just shooting.

What's a good trigger pull? Unload your gun, point it in a safe direction, and close your eyes. Pull the trigger, without stopping, and without changing the rate at which your pressure increases from start to finish. Smooth, no acceleration. Very easy to do, actually.

The hard part is doing it with sights and a target.

Try 2-second drills (aim at target, break trigger in 2 seconds or less), and also blank target drills (turn target around, shoot at back of target, marvel at teensy groups).

'keyholed', if I wanted to buy one of those conversions with a good trigger, where do I look?   I still have my first Salyer gun, and it was originally set up to allow someone to do what you're suggesting.  It has a good trigger already.  Where would I buy the equipment I need to accomplish what you've suggested?  (If anyone here has one they would like to sell, please let me know.)

Also, when I wrote that nobody understands what I meant, you didn't either, probably because I didn't describe it correctly.  For 30 years I shot two handed.  When I first tried to hold up my Model 41 one handed, it was a joke.  It's not that I couldn't hold it on the 'black', it's that I couldn't even hold it up, and "aiming" was out of the question. Hmm, if you're married, and if your wife doesn't shoot, take one of your unloaded guns and ask her to hold it up with one hand/arm and point at something.  I think you'll see what I'm trying to describe.  Over time, and being stubborn enough, my body can now not only hold that gun, but I'm close to being able to shoot one handed as well as I used to two-handed.

I appreciate what you wrote, and am trying to do some of those things - I find it helpful to aim at a blank wall, dry-fire, and see if the dot moves.  I used to get one good shot out of ten.  Now I get seven or eight.  (The easiest way for me to make it 10 out of 10, is to wear a wrist weight for maybe 15 minutes of dry-fire, then take the weight off.  Every shot is good, no more movement when the gun goes click.


Seriously, if someone here has a suitable 22 conversion they could sell, please let me know.

Question for Brian....      I started doing what you suggest, pressure on trigger to stabilize gun, as soon as I was moving the gun over the target.  Great idea, it even works for me, now that I understand it.

I woke up last night with some kind of dream about this - is the ONLY thing you're doing trying to make the gun more steady? People used to kid about using the trigger to help aim the gun - are you in any way suggesting that?  I don't think so, but ?????

mikemyers wrote: if I wanted to buy one of those conversions with a good trigger, where do I look?   I still have my first Salyer gun, and it was originally set up to allow someone to do what you're suggesting.  It has a good trigger already.  Where would I buy the equipment I need to accomplish what you've suggested?  (If anyone here has one they would like to sell, please let me know.)

You install it on one of your existing 1911's. That way you are using the same grip and trigger as you will be for .45.

https://www.marvelprecision.com/

http://www.nelsoncustomguns.com/22lr-conversion/

Also watch "Commercial Row" here on this site as they pop up fairly frequently.

Hey, thanks DA/SA,  

Rather than divert this thread, I'll start looking around, and find an existing thread about these, but if anyone reading this has one for sale, please send me a PM.         .....Mike

12XNPC wrote:There is an argument for and against this. What it boils down to is the individual and were the strength is in their hand. Some will see less wobble, some will see an increase in wobble.

Brian, regarding my moving the Aimpoint so far forwards, it did seem to reduce the "wobble size", but it didn't feel comfortable.  After two days of dry-firing with the sight up front, I moved it back where it used to be..  
The wobble size thanks to practice (and all the ideas here) is getting better every day.  Applying pressure to the trigger as you suggested worked like a charm.

Using my one pound wrist weight every so often makes the M-41 almost feel like a plastic gun when I take the weight off my wrist.
I postponed my range trip from today to tomorrow.  I'd like to try out some of these ideas.


As to weight, I had a big surprise.
My Model 41 with the longer Clark barrel and Aimpoint H2 sight weighs 2.8 pounds on my digital bathroom scale.
My High Standard with "The Victor" barrel, the rail, Matchdot II sight, with large plastic one-hand grips weighs 3.8 pounds.
I didn't expect that.   Until now, I thought I remembered how light the HS was, but back then it has a lighter barrel, a minimal rail, and the Tasco.

Regarding those fancy grips on the High Standard, I'm beginning to think I should just put the Herrett's wood grips I bought back on it.



Curious, do most of you use a dedicated 22, or a 1911 with conversion kit?  Forgetting cost, does one have an advantage over the other?

I have a Feinwerkbau AW93 and I have  Marvel Conversion on a Cabot 1911 Lower. 

I love my AW93. Have won many Nationals with it. I want to shoot the Marvel, if we can get along well enough at 50 yards. 

The advantage, having one grip for three guns is huge.

Wow.  Absolutely beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!   Stunning!
Any videos of you competing with it?

Added later - oops, I forgot to ask what I originally was going to ask - even in your hands, can any 1911 conversion compete with something as fine as one of these guns?

Absolutely they can.

Mike, what you'll find is most good 22's will shoot 1" with even CCI SV, as low as 1/2" with high dollar ammo. What it comes down to is trigger, grips, balance, overall weight and reliability. It really comes down to what you shoot well. I think you would benefit from a pistol with the balance further back like a 1911 22 conversion.

Or move the dot over the grip. The 7" barrels are lighter up front then the bull barreled 5.5". I removed the rear sights and drilled and tapped this for a K/N frame weaver mount. Same contour/shape on top.

mikemyers wrote:

Wow.  Absolutely beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!   Stunning!
Any videos of you competing with it?

Added later - oops, I forgot to ask what I originally was going to ask - even in your hands, can any 1911 conversion compete with something as fine as one of these guns?

John Zurek won nationals last year shooting a conversion on a 1911. He also just shot an 893 in the Sectional. Championship.
Jon

Wow, was I ever wrong.   I thought the things going for the conversion were that it saved money, and had the same grip as the 1911, so everything was more "the same".  It's difficult for me to accept that I could buy one of those conversions for $500 or so, drop it on any 1911, and have the equivalent of that dedicated gun.  I'll ask in another thread, once I know enough to even ask the question.

Jon, do you shoot a conversion, or ???  Brian said he had some reservations about it at 50 yards.    I'll look for a 'conversion' thread, and ask there.

Not to one up you, but I believe Jack Adams just shot an 894 at sectionals using a marvel. So yeah, they're competitive!

Dave

mikemyers wrote:

Jon, do you shoot a conversion, or ???  Brian said he had some reservations about it at 50 yards.    I'll look for a 'conversion' thread, and ask there.

I think your over interpreting Brians comments. A National Champion has a somewhat different criteria (much like an Olympian would have) than we mere mortals.
A conversion, or a Ruger MK for that matter, will take the vast majority of us farther than we ever dreamed.

My older Marvel 6" longslide with barrel cut flush to slide holds 0.6 with most high end ammunition. My PB SF @ 50 yds with it is 100-8x. Its a shooter! Truthfully I hardly shoot it! I've been shooting 208S and am switching over to the MG2.
Jon