Can we talk Wobble?

First topic message reminder :

If my reading and understanding of what I read is right as long as your trigger breaks with in your wobble area that is what you want.  That way you can keep the trigger moving and not try to snatch the shot when the dot is on the X ring.  Because that is not where the dot is going to be when the bullet clears the barrel.  Now what I want to know is I been right so far is when you all are shooting clean targets your wobble is all in the 10 ring?  Don

Jon Shue won nat's with a marvel, Zurek set high civilian record 2679.

What those guys said. It's still pretty heavy compared to a .45 1911 (at least I think so, I haven't weighed my guns), because despite the use of aluminum, the barrel and steel rail are quite heavy. Perhaps not as weight-forward as a 41.

I'd really say, go with whatever is easiest, physically, to shoot, and put the simplest grips on it. I'm still nowhere near the point where anatomicals are going to matter, and I hate playing with grips because they just seem like a distraction. Ditto for the gun, really--James speaks truth. All it needs to do, really, is hold zero and have a decently consistent trigger. A Ruger, HS, Buckmark, Victory, etc, all will do that just fine.

The reason you see so many $1k-$2k guns on the line isn't that those shooters need them or that they even make a difference for those shooters, these are just guys dropping coin on a hobby they like.

You mentioned anatomical grips.  For what it's worth, after watching many of Brian's videos yet again, I took the pair off my Model 41, and put the stock grips back on that came with the gun.  Instant reduction in wobble.  Again.  Between all the tips you guys are bringing up, I'm gonna have "negative wobble".   :-)

It seems reasonable to me that the wobble on a conversion would be very similar to the wobble on the 45.  Again, following Brian's videos (and the one from Doug Koenig) made a big improvement on my 45....several weeks since I last shot it.  Only 22 lately.

I used to think that one benefit of an expensive gun, was that you would get more confidence in it, and therefore shoot better.  That theory went into the garbage can.  For me, what builds (or the opposite) confidence, is how well the gun worked "last time".  

Something nobody mentioned yet is dry-fire.  Doing as much of it as I'm doing, I'm sort of getting used to what I'm capable of.  So, it got interesting to try to move my hand, or my trigger finger, or the rest of my grip, and see what goes where for the minimal wobble.  I'm going to start to sound like a broken record, but I kept finding that what works best for me, is what's in Brian videos, but only after I really understand them.  I used to think I was doing what he said, but then I moved something a tiny amount, and everything got better.  I wish I knew someone who could watch me, and point out things that could be done better.  I've got a half-hour dry-firing session on my phone, which alternates between "work" and "rest" (as Keith Sanderson suggested), and I try to do that three or four times a day, every day, spreading the sessions out over the course of the day.  Doing that, I can see reductions in wobble from day to day, and sometimes from one session to the next.  

The wobble is always at its worst early in the day.  Then things smooth out, and work better.  I don't understand the "why", but after ten or 15 rounds, I'm doing better again.

mikemyers wrote:The wobble is always at its worst early in the day.  Then things smooth out, and work better.  I don't understand the "why", but after ten or 15 rounds, I'm doing better again.

This is why you see so many people dry firing before the first target in a match.
- Dave

Mike, which one if Brian's videos are you referencing? I'm currently playing with a set of anatomical grips, and while I've shot my PB with them, they aren't the end all solution I was hoping for. (If only it was that easy.) Learned a ton while modding them, but it's time to focus on shooting and not sanding...


As for wobble, how much strength training is advisable? I separated my shoulder pretty bad racing motorcycles a few years back, and strength in my shoulder is definitely lacking. I've been working out a few times a week so I'm worried that a somewhat sudden increase in strength will hurt scores rather than slowly building up my shooting muscles. Any truth to that?

Stork,
I don't think many top shooters got their through strength training. Learning to hold still and not getting excited does not take brute strength. Overall body conditioning and high rep endurance training will reap rewards. The key to getting better always starts with not injuring yourself during training. Just hold the pistol for longer periods.

A 2700+EIC matches is a marathon mentally and physically.

If you do Holding drills do not look a the sights while doing holding drills. The objective is to get to where the finger reacts to what the eye sees. Holding drills while looking at sights is not allowing the finger to react to what the eye sees.

LtC Miller instructed me to hold with my eyes closed and try to picture and feel the gun in position and in alignment.  Then look and check.  Hopefully there is no other feeling anywhere else in body.  Nowadays my low back is feeling and distracting from the same place as surgery some years ago.

Stork wrote:Mike, which one if Brian's videos are you referencing? I'm currently playing with a set of anatomical grips, and while I've shot my PB with them, they aren't the end all solution I was hoping for. (If only it was that easy.) Learned a ton while modding them, but it's time to focus on shooting and not sanding.........

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/1/31/a-clinic-on-precision-pistol-fundamentals-part-i

"Now keep in mind, this is for a 1911 slab-style grip or a .22LR with slabs. Unfortunately, if you are using orthopedic grips—you can’t do this with them."


My impression while reading this, was that if I want to use Brian's videos and articles for my own training, I need to copy everything he does, at least to the best of my ability.  To follow his videos, and his instructions, while changing something like that didn't feel right to me.  I tried them anyway on my Model 41 at one point, and maybe they weren't professionally fitted to my hand, but they felt like they gave me less control of the gun, certainly not more.  

robert84010 wrote:........I don't think many top shooters got their through strength training. Learning to hold still and not getting excited does not take brute strength..............The key to getting better always starts with not injuring yourself during training. Just hold the pistol for longer periods...........

From my point of view, you guys are not talking about the same thing.  I had the same problem, and got the same advice.   But nobody really understood me.  When I picked up my Model 41 using just one hand, I could barely hold it up in front of me, let alone any pretense of aiming it.  Let's say it weighed 4 pounds back then, with the Matchdot II, and people wanted me to hold my arm straight out in front of me, with this four pound weight - the gun was waving all over the place, until it hurt so bad I had to lower my arm.

The last thing 'robert84010' wrote was the key.  I would hold the gun out as long as I could, then lower it.  Over and over.  Just like Keith Sanderson says in his holding videos, but I started out with maybe five or six seconds of holding it.  Over time, I got to where I could do it longer and longer.  At some point I decided to aim at a target, or the wall, and dry fire practice.  I actually started feeling good about this, but it took a long time.  When I finally got to where I could hold it out in front of me for five or ten seconds, I added a 1.5 pound wrist weight, so I went back several steps.  Lots more practice, building up the time I could do it.  At some point I set up my dry-firing sessions so the first half was with the weight, after which I removed it.  At this time the gun was a 1911, but what amazed me was when I took the wrist weight off, the gun felt like it was made of plastic, not steel.

The guys who told me "bullseye shooting is not weight training" were right, but whatever anyone calls it, my right arm did slowly get to where it could do the right things at the right time, for as long as necessary.  I'm 75, and not that strong.  If it worked for me, it should work for anyone.......but someone with a shoulder injury probably needs to ask a doctor about doing this.  


In retrospect, for what it's worth, I agree with the above post.  Learning to hold still" doesn't take brute strength, but it does take enough strength, which I didn't have.  

The beautiful thing about this is the more you do it, the better you get, and that wobble area continues to come down in size!!!   At least it did for me.  I can't tell anyone else what to do, but I don't mind saying what I did.   I wish more people would do that, as I might have learned from others long ago what I needed to do, when I was so frustrated that I couldn't do things that others make look so easy......   You can't shot Bullseye if you can't hold the gun up....     and I was SO tempted to just use two hands again.  But for this forum, I'd still be shooting with both of them.

12XNPC wrote:........and I have  Marvel Conversion on a Cabot 1911 Lower...............The advantage, having one grip for three guns is huge.......

I ordered the Nelson conversion this afternoon.  Long waiting time.  It will arrive, eventually.   Thanks to everyone, and now this thread can get back to wobble.

Mike, thanks for the link and explanation about the grip. I'll go rewatch those videos tomorrow.

Also, Mike you are more helpful for those lurking than you realize. Your questions have helped me a ton because of those who answered. 

Lastly, thanks for tip about doing holding drills with my eyes closed. I've just started doing them and I felt like I was chasing my sights while trying to keep my sight picture perfect.

'Stork', thanks!!!   If you find a free evening, do a Google search for "brian zins video", and plan on watching all of them, and if you're like me, watch two or three times.  Some things I didn't notice the first time.  Oh yeah, make notes.   Then you can do this over again in a week or so, after you've tried them.  Maybe before you do anything else, watch this video, to get you started:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqFn9AU7les 

For me, all that video really helped me understand what many people here have been trying to teach us; I guess I'm a slow learner.  

There are so many people here who are so talented, and know so much, but I often feel like a kid in a mathematics class, who accidentally walked into a different class on "calculus and analytic geometry".   .....as in lost.  Yes, "those who answered" are awesome!  Eventually it starts to make sense.


The tip about doing holding drills wasn't from me - I was surprised when I read it, as that's what I should have been doing   I was surprised by what Brian wrote about that - I never thought about it that way before. One more thing I was doing wrong. 

The way I see it, all this discussion about reducing wobble can end up in tighter groups - but nothing will get better without improving trigger control.

12XNPC wrote:.........I understand that getting someone to move to the trigger prior to achieving perfect sight alignment / sight picture is challenging.......

........As we apply pressure to the trigger we will notice that the wobble will decrease, simply because we are now offering pressure of force to part of the gun, the trigger.........

........From the time the gun leaves the bench and you present to the target and the shot breaks it should only take about 8 seconds, 10 seconds on the high end..... 
........Because the first shot of every sustained fire string SHOULD be the same process as every slow fire shot that you make.......

Brian, do you take the same time to take a shot in slow fire, as when the pace is faster?    (From what you posted, I think the same.)
Given that you have a lot more time if you want it, how do you use that extra time?
In slow fire, are you already applying pressure to the trigger before you are aiming, or only as your aiming?  ....or because of your skill, can you pick up the gun and automatically get close to the bullseye?

Worded differently, when I pick up my gun, and start to point at the target, it takes a certain amount of time to move the gun close enough to the bullseye, before I can start "aiming".  During that time, should I be already applying pressure to the trigger, or only when the bullseye comes into view in my sight?

Mike, I'm not answering for Brian, I'm sure he will answer soon, but he has answered this many times. ONE SHOT PROCESS. That is what you need to develop. Slow, timed, rapid.

I don't think I posted enough information.  Yes, one shot process, but the speed of it could potentially be faster or slower.  That's what I was trying to ask.  

It seems logical to me that one would take more time in slow fire for one shot, than in rapid fire.   If nothing else, in slow fire, Brian can lower the gun between shots, as I think he did in one video.  

Thanks for the reminder, ONE SHOT PROCESS.  But I suspect he will post things he does differently.  As in, given all that extra time, does he take more time to aim?

What I think he, and the others that have stressed a one process method, is to get the trigger moving before the sights are aligned. This comes more naturally in timed and rapid but many forget this in slow fire. They break from their process and take too much time dressing things up and jerk the trigger. Commit to a slow fire shot before you lift, get the gun up and MAKE your process match your timed fire committed, smooth shot. Don't lollygag.

maybe make each shot of SF the same as first shot of TF/RF.

Interesting observation.  If anyone had asked me until a week or so ago, I'd have said that the trigger on my Model 41 doesn't really move, I just continue to apply pressure until it fires.  I think I even posted that.  Then Brian turned my world upside down wit the idea of applying increasing pressure to the trigger WHILE aiming, not after.  So, I've been practicing that in dry-fire.  The more I practice, the more my trigger seems to move.  With the hard spot on my finger directly on the trigger (thanks, Brian), I can now feel the trigger smoothly moving ever so slowly until the gun fires, hopefully as the sights are where they should be.

At the same time, I used to wonder if my three pound trigger on my Model 41 was too heavy.  I was looking at ways to lighten it.  But doing what Brian suggested, that would decrease my perceived trigger pull I think.  The three pounds no longer feels  heavy or light, it's just something that is gradually increasing, as I can feel the trigger moving.  Unless it's all just in my mind - I'm not sure.  What I do know is that I like it.  

I also have realized that with all this going on, much of the wobble that I saw before has vanished.  The smoother, and slower, I move the trigger, the more stable the dot is.  I also found that my trigger finger needs to be at 90 degrees to the gun; if it isn't, as the gun goes CLICK the dot moves.  

I think I know what's in all of the Zins videos, but every time I go through them, I learn something I missed earlier.

Sorry, I was away from the computer over the weekend. 

I was at Nationals one year and new young shooter on the Marine Team approached me after one of the 900's and said, "Gunny, I was watching you shoot. Did you know that it takes between 7-8 seconds from the time the gun comes off the bench and the shot breaks in slow fire, every time." 

Not something I was conscious of but it makes perfect sense. I begin to the raise the gun in sustained fire after the command "all ready on the left." Do the math. Between 7 & 8 seconds the target faces. 

The image below is from my Bullseye Timer app. I stopped it after "ready on the left." Gun is presented to the target, Dot or sights are acquired, finger starts moving to the rear, gun settles in the middle, target faces, shot breaks. 



If we are truly using one shot process for all stages of fire the shots should break pretty close to the same time, every time. Our hold should be no longer in slow fire just because we have more time. If we hold the gun longer in slow fire trying to "make it perfect" no wonder people freak out when they get into rapid fire. 

It usually takes me about 3 1/2 to 4 minute to shoot slow fire. With the exception of Camp Perry and windy conditions, if you are taking longer than that you better be aborting a whole lot of shots. 

Other than wind, what takes 10 minutes to shoot 10 rounds in slow fire?

Thank you for the reply, and yes, that also answered my question.  

I will search for the "Bullseye Timer App" that you use; I only found a different one.  Hope this is still available.


To answer your question, "what takes 10 minutes to shoot 10 rounds in slow fire", I was expecting you to write "more time between shots".  I'm obviously wrong.

That app is not available for iPhone, only Android

Bullseye Range Commands by David Divins
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/bullseye-range-commands/id605820809?mt=8

You spend the first few minutes dry firing. The last 5 minutes reloading your magazines for the next target.

12XNPC wrote:...

It usually takes me about 3 1/2 to 4 minute to shoot slow fire. With the exception of Camp Perry and windy conditions, if you are taking longer than that you better be aborting a whole lot of shots. 

...

Great thread here. So much good stuff to think about, and input from top level competitors is greatly appreciated.

So... aborted shots. In SF, I think I understand that if your shot process is interrupted or is not quite right, for some reason, the proper response is to abort the shot, reset, and begin the shot process anew. I've heard guys say stuff like "keep the potential X in the pistol" and "put the gun on the table" to get back to your process.

Questions to any of the experienced competitors: Do you literally put the gun down? As in, set it down and let go, so you've got to re-establish your grip to start a new shot process? Or do you just relax your shooting arm before raising it again? Or do you maintain your grip and rest the gun or your hand on the table? What actually happens when you abort?

In addition to doing some of the drills I've read about, I've been "practicing" by shooting what amounts to a simulated NMC, using audio files on my phone and earbuds under my muffs. Often my TF and RF stages are better than my SF, so this seems relevant for me right now.