Keep the trigger moving?

First topic message reminder :

Guys I don't want to be difficult but I just don't get this concept.  I can understand keep applying pressure but if my trigger moves any it breaks.  I have KC's triggers in my LB and Nelson and I am darn if I can feel any movement before the break.  Yes there is a little pre travel  that has no tention at all but that is very little.  I have sit here closed my eyes and squeezed slowly and if there is any trigger movement it is very very small.  If I started that movement before I neared the X ring I would be shooting the top of the black or 8 ring.  It maybe just me.  It maybe just the triggers, but I need to get this right as I understand it is not like my benchresting the gun where I hold the 1 MOA dot or crosshairs on the X and squeeze.  My 70 year old reactions time and the time it takes the bullet to leave the barrel after the trigger breaks leaves the dot somewhere other then the X.  So move the trigger or apply the pressure.  Don

Location of he finger on the trigger depends on the shooter. Making trigger shoes I get to talk to quite a few shooters and many High Masters. A High Master at my club uses the tip of the trigger finger. I just made a trigger for a well known High Master ( I hate dropping names) that has a few records and he uses the pad not the first joint. Adam (my son) uses the pad and is 2650+ with both hands.
 I think the term "Keep the Trigger Moving" means not to start and stop the trigger pull as the sights move on and off the center of the bull. Some time ago when I was just starting many suggested doing that. I read a book on shooting (probably still have is someplace) that recommended the stopping finger pressure as the sights moved off center bull and to continue pressure when it returned. A while later I attended an NRA convention and signed-up for a shooting clinic. The top of the day were there including old timers such as Blankenship, Higgenson and Reeves. None knew where the idea started about stopping finger pressure as the sights moved off center bull but all stated not to do it. Crisp or roll once pressure is started continue increasing it until the shot breaks. If in Slow Fire the arc movement begins to increase due to what ever, abort then start again. I think that's what the term means "Keep the Trigger Moving"
 When I returned from that clinic and "Kept the Trigger moving" my score greatly improved and soon was the highest shooter in my league.

I just dismantled, cleaned and lubed all fire control parts and can now better feel the slight roll on my trigger.   

As a new shooter, I am using the mental construct of building pressure slowly with the finger and if I stop or want to accelerate because of the sight picture, I need to abort.  When I get confused, I practice the idea with nothing in my hand, which helps because the travel is exaggerated without the actual tripping of the sear.

I am working to avoid "snatching" because of excellent sight picture (which does not work).

What seams to be working for me is to believe in my wobble and if I am wobbling inside the black and keep the trigger moving then I will hit in the black.  Most of the time my wobble is black size but centered at 9 o'clock edge of the black.  Then the moving trigger just seams to break at a 8 or a 7.  The way I am shooting 8s I can live with 6s and 5s not so much.  Seams like my 50 yard wobble is about the size of the target. 

Now here is my problem.  Even when my wobble is inside the black and at it's very best, you know when the shot felt good, I do not feel like I am shooting at the X ring it just feels like luck if the trigger breaks at the right time.  This is supposed to be a skill game not a luck thing as I am a little short on luck.  Don

Don, I was playing with slowing down my trigger pull this morning during dry firing.   My suggestion is to set up on the dry fire target (or wall), close your eyes and slowly build pressure on the trigger.   I was then able to predict just before the sear would release.  Another way of feeling this is to remove everything else but the trigger pull practice (i.e. stance grip, sight picture, etc.) and just get familiar with the way the trigger moves.

Aprilian wrote:Don, I was playing with slowing down my trigger pull this morning during dry firing.   My suggestion is to set up on the dry fire target (or wall), close your eyes and slowly build pressure on the trigger.   I was then able to predict just before the sear would release.  Another way of feeling this is to remove everything else but the trigger pull practice (i.e. stance grip, sight picture, etc.) and just get familiar with the way the trigger moves.

I been sitting here closing my eyes and just feeling the trigger pull.  I will get this some day.  I received my Wilson Combat mag floor plate rail adapter for my MantisX and my trigger pull is petty clean but could and will be better.  It appears it is after the break that I suffer.  Learn follow through.  Don

Magload wrote:

Aprilian wrote:Don, I was playing with slowing down my trigger pull this morning during dry firing.   My suggestion is to set up on the dry fire target (or wall), close your eyes and slowly build pressure on the trigger.   I was then able to predict just before the sear would release.  Another way of feeling this is to remove everything else but the trigger pull practice (i.e. stance grip, sight picture, etc.) and just get familiar with the way the trigger moves.

I been sitting here closing my eyes and just feeling the trigger pull.  I will get this some day.  I received my Wilson Combat mag floor plate rail adapter for my MantisX and my trigger pull is petty clean but could and will be better.  It appears it is after the break that I suffer.  Learn follow through.  Don

Not sure what this follow through is when the hammer drops and bullet is gone what else is their?  Maybe Jason can inlighten me since he's a muzzleloader champ

Chris Miceli wrote:

Magload wrote:

Aprilian wrote:Don, I was playing with slowing down my trigger pull this morning during dry firing.   My suggestion is to set up on the dry fire target (or wall), close your eyes and slowly build pressure on the trigger.   I was then able to predict just before the sear would release.  Another way of feeling this is to remove everything else but the trigger pull practice (i.e. stance grip, sight picture, etc.) and just get familiar with the way the trigger moves.

I been sitting here closing my eyes and just feeling the trigger pull.  I will get this some day.  I received my Wilson Combat mag floor plate rail adapter for my MantisX and my trigger pull is petty clean but could and will be better.  It appears it is after the break that I suffer.  Learn follow through.  Don

Not sure what this follow through is when the hammer drops and bullet is gone what else is their?  Maybe Jason can inlighten me since he's a muzzleloader champ

Chris I am not sure either but the graft showed that I dipped the muzzle 3 out of the 5 shots, and I know that I do that.  We have had that discussion on here about what can happen it that very short period of time between trigger break and the bullet leaving the barrel.  I am sure the less movement the better so that is what I will strive for.  I know that I should keep the trigger back and stay with the shot through recoil.  I come off the trigger to quickly to often like I am still doing my double taps.  I would suspect Jason will know then and things don't happen fast with muzzle loaders.  I shot a 20ga double barrel percussion cap muzzle loaded and it seamed like it took forever.  Don

Chris;

What is it that you do not understand the term follow through ?
If you are a decent shooter and can call your shots(and I mean call your shots) then you have it.
It is in your shot process, maybe you do not know it is there.
You do have a shot process; right ?

C.Perkins wrote:Chris;

What is it that you do not understand the term follow through ?
If you are a decent shooter and can call your shots(and I mean call your shots) then you have it.
It is in your shot process, maybe you do not know it is there.
You do have a shot process; right ?

I can call my shots, I do kinda have a shot plan but It's not written down pretty much do the same thing every time. In slow fire the shot goes bang recoil gun down

It appears I've been summoned 

My mentor drove this into my head. 

Q: What is your job?
A: To shoot ten's.
Q: How do you do it?
A: Maintain correct sight picture until the bullet is out the end of the barrel. 

Follow through. Let me paint a picture for you. My example will involve a flintlock pistol but the concept applies here too. The gun is up ready to go and your sight picture is acquired. Pressure on the trigger, sear leaves it's notch, flint falls and strikes the frizzen creating a shower of sparks. These sparks ignite the powder in the pan that sets off the powder in the barrel through the vent hole. This sends the ball and patch down and out the bore. While the cock falls with the flint, the sparks, the priming powder, then the main charge... through ALL of this you MUST maintain correct sight picture. With a flint pistol, and even with a percussion gun for that matter, you could very well get a hang fire or a delayed fire, if conditions aren't proper. So it is important that you maintain your sight picture. Through all of this AND AFTER the fall of the flint.

YOU HOLD YOUR SIGHT PICTURE UNTIL THE GUN LEAVES YOUR AIMING AREA AND TAKES YOUR GUN HAND WITH IT THROUGH RECOIL. 

If you own a revolver and have a safe way to dry fire it then go get it out. I'll wait..... 

Raise it. Cock it. Aim. fire. Did your sight alignment get disturbed? If so then you did not follow through. Typically your front sight will take a dive. Or bounce from once side to the other real quick. It's a grip and trigger control issue but can often be blamed mostly on grip. You have to have such a focus on keeping the front sight where it needs to be as you apply pressure to the trigger that it's only disturbed by the gun recoiling. If you were to fire a dud then your sights should not move. Your grip is how you're going to keep that front sight where it needs to be until the shot is over. Trigger control plays a bad part when you haven't accomplished moving your trigger finger with out disturbing your grip. 

Have a friend mix up dummies and live ammo for you in a loaded magazine and shoot a target like that. When the dummy chambers and you go click instead of an expected bang you'll see how well or not so well you did with follow through. 

When I shoot a slow fire target for example, I ride out the recoil to the top of my arms arch and stop. I do not recover and go back to six o'clock. I don't mimic my sustained fire targets actions. I feel it's a waste of energy, time, and focus. You're focusing on recovering after the shot is over. No longer are you focusing on the shot that just occurred. This is the time to instead immediately register and catalog in your mind what just happened. Reading your sights through a shot will allow you to know where that bullet went. "Calling your shots" is knowing where the sight was last before the gun went up. That last moment. It's quick! Don't miss it. 

I could go on for hours but it's late, I'm tired from a long day at the range with the usually blasting crowd, and my Saturday evening headache and I'm rambling. 

Bottom line,

"Maintain correct sight picture until the bullet is out the end of the barrel." - Charlie Haffner Jr. 
"Watch that front sight like you're trying to pin it on the targets six and don't stop till it's over." - Me!

A picture is worth a thousand words.

wesleytilson@gmail.com wrote:A picture is worth a thousand words.

I shoot with the left picture but Brian recommends the center pic as not to be using the meaty pad.  That way you know it's the trigger and not the meat that is moving.  With my trigger shoes the center pic don't work well.  I suspect I slip into the right position while shooting as I get shots at 9 o'clock.  I try to get the groove up against the right side of the trigger as a reference but it seams like there is just to many things going on the get them all perfect for every shot.  Don

From my point of view keeping the trigger moving is to keep the pressure building on the trigger.  You need to time the finish of that pull with the sights and target coming into alignment. When thinking about these 2 things together also think about what Zins would say about driving the dot with your finger to the center of the target.  In rapid fire you do not have a lot of time to back off of the increasing pressure on the trigger and abort that shot.  When talking to HM's about this process the general I get the feeling that you need to trust your process that you will have moved the dot into the black by the time the trigger pressure has reached the brake point.

We also need to remember that if you break the shot with a 4moa dot when it is in the black you will get a 10.

Toz35m wrote:We also need to remember that if you break the shot with a 4moa dot when it is in the black you will get a 10.

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days now and I'm a bit confused. A minute of angle is a hair over 1" at 100 yards but the dot's appearance doesn't change when we point it at a target at 50 or 25 yards, does it? Does a 4moa dot cover an 8" circle at 50 yards? 16" at 25? That would be bigger than the black so I don't think so. Or does the dot's appearance really change based on distance i.e. 2" at 50 yards and 1" at 25?

Can anyone clarify?

There are lots of minute details, but basically MOA is used because it represents the width of the dot as the edges are projected outward from the center point of the eye.  This does indicate that as the distance from the target is increased, the area of the target covered increases.  The area does not double, but the width of the coverage does, at least pretty close.

A similar analogy would be to look down some straight railroad tracks while standing in the middle (don't do this at home, or when trains are present), and place your thumb up at arm's length in front of you.  It will not obscure the close part of the tracks, but it will cover the further portion, even though the width of the tracks doesn't vary.  The narrower your thumb, the further you have to look to obtain obscurity.

Mathematically, pi times the diameter of a circle is equal to its circumference (pi*d).  As you know, a circle has 360 degrees and each degree has 60 minutes. Let's assume a radius of 25 yards, which gives us a circumference of 157.08 yards.  Now, let's divide the circumference into minutes.  157.08/(360*60) = 0.0073 yards, or about 0.26 inch per minute.  0.26x4 means a 4 MOA dot covers about a one inch diameter circle at 25 yards.  If we now calculate it for 50 yards, 100*pi=314.16yards, 314.16/(360*60)=0.0145 yards, 0.0073*36=0.52 inch, 0.52*4=2.09 inches.  So the 4 MOA dot should cover a circle of just about 2 inch diameter at 50 yards.  It is commonly considered that 1 MOA is one inch at 100 yards.  If you carry my math out another step, it should confirm that.

All the math is approximate, due to minute differences in things like the arc of the circle vs. the flat surface of the target and the size of the observer's pupil, etc.  But the numbers are pretty close.

Got it. Thanks Ed. Now I'm thinking of experimenting with a bigger dot.

Dang Ed I am glad I don't have to think of all that math when shooting.  Kind of makes my head spin just reading it.  Don

Froneck wrote:Some time ago when I was just starting many suggested doing that. I read a book on shooting (probably still have is someplace) that recommended the stopping finger pressure as the sights moved off center bull and to continue pressure when it returned. A while later I attended an NRA convention and signed-up for a shooting clinic. The top of the day were there including old timers such as Blankenship, Higgenson and Reeves. None knew where the idea started about stopping finger pressure as the sights moved off center bull but all stated not to do it. 

I saw something like that in the pistol shooters treasury, Fundamentals of Pistol Marksmanship by William Joyner.

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/joyner.htm

Magload wrote:Check 7 1911s all feel the same two of those have KC triggers.  Is it possible I installed them wrong or is my fingers just brain dead?  Just checked all finger on both hands it is possible to pull a trigger with and it doesn't matter.  Not going to worry about it I can learn to shoot these just fine.  Don

Have you felt any roll yet in your les baer?  I can feel it in my Nelson, but not in my les baer

KBarth wrote:

Magload wrote:Check 7 1911s all feel the same two of those have KC triggers.  Is it possible I installed them wrong or is my fingers just brain dead?  Just checked all finger on both hands it is possible to pull a trigger with and it doesn't matter.  Not going to worry about it I can learn to shoot these just fine.  Don

Have you felt any roll yet in your les baer?  I can feel it in my Nelson, but not in my les baer

I put one of KC's rolls in my Les Baer too, couldn't feel a roll, felt very crisp. Had it set at 2.5lbs. Then I took off the dot and set it up for EIC, increased the trigger pull weight to 4lbs. All of a sudden the same gun/trigger felt like a very looooong roll trigger.

daflorc wrote:

KBarth wrote:

Magload wrote:Check 7 1911s all feel the same two of those have KC triggers.  Is it possible I installed them wrong or is my fingers just brain dead?  Just checked all finger on both hands it is possible to pull a trigger with and it doesn't matter.  Not going to worry about it I can learn to shoot these just fine.  Don

Have you felt any roll yet in your les baer?  I can feel it in my Nelson, but not in my les baer

I put one of KC's rolls in my Les Baer too, couldn't feel a roll, felt very crisp. Had it set at 2.5lbs. Then I took off the dot and set it up for EIC, increased the trigger pull weight to 4lbs. All of a sudden the same gun/trigger felt like a very looooong roll trigger.

That maybe my problem as one of the KC triggers is in a R1 frame with a Nelson set to 2.5lbs and the other in in the LB set to just over 3.5lbs.  I do have some numbing in my fingers again.  They tell me I might need carpel tunnel again as it doesn't always last.  That is not going to happen. Once in each hand was once to many times.  I do shoot the LB better then the Nelson so maybe it is working and I just can't tell it.  Don

Magload wrote:

daflorc wrote:

KBarth wrote:

Magload wrote:Check 7 1911s all feel the same two of those have KC triggers.  Is it possible I installed them wrong or is my fingers just brain dead?  Just checked all finger on both hands it is possible to pull a trigger with and it doesn't matter.  Not going to worry about it I can learn to shoot these just fine.  Don

Have you felt any roll yet in your les baer?  I can feel it in my Nelson, but not in my les baer

I put one of KC's rolls in my Les Baer too, couldn't feel a roll, felt very crisp. Had it set at 2.5lbs. Then I took off the dot and set it up for EIC, increased the trigger pull weight to 4lbs. All of a sudden the same gun/trigger felt like a very looooong roll trigger.

That maybe my problem as one of the KC triggers is in a R1 frame with a Nelson set to 2.5lbs and the other in in the LB set to just over 3.5lbs.  I do have some numbing in my fingers again.  They tell me I might need carpel tunnel again as it doesn't always last.  That is not going to happen. Once in each hand was once to many times.  I do shoot the LB better then the Nelson so maybe it is working and I just can't tell it.  Don

I should note that I have this roll trigger in 3 of my current guns, my dads RO, and my old RO. While I notice a noticeable roll, my dad does not. If you press the trigger with the fatty pad of your trigger, you might not notice the roll. Its a very subtle thing, and you'll likely only notice it if you pull the trigger slowly with increasing pressure. You'll notice the roll more if you're pulling the trigger with the crease of your finger, because there's less flesh there, just bone, so when you feel the trigger move, you know you're actually moving the trigger, not just the flesh of your finger. Although has been noted before, not everyone can or chooses to use the crease of their finger. In addition, I do not know how the addition of a wide trigger shoe will affect the rolling sensation - I imagine you would feel less roll due to the shoe. Might consider removing that if you have one on.

daflorc wrote:

Magload wrote:

daflorc wrote:

KBarth wrote:

Magload wrote:Check 7 1911s all feel the same two of those have KC triggers.  Is it possible I installed them wrong or is my fingers just brain dead?  Just checked all finger on both hands it is possible to pull a trigger with and it doesn't matter.  Not going to worry about it I can learn to shoot these just fine.  Don

Have you felt any roll yet in your les baer?  I can feel it in my Nelson, but not in my les baer

I put one of KC's rolls in my Les Baer too, couldn't feel a roll, felt very crisp. Had it set at 2.5lbs. Then I took off the dot and set it up for EIC, increased the trigger pull weight to 4lbs. All of a sudden the same gun/trigger felt like a very looooong roll trigger.

That maybe my problem as one of the KC triggers is in a R1 frame with a Nelson set to 2.5lbs and the other in in the LB set to just over 3.5lbs.  I do have some numbing in my fingers again.  They tell me I might need carpel tunnel again as it doesn't always last.  That is not going to happen. Once in each hand was once to many times.  I do shoot the LB better then the Nelson so maybe it is working and I just can't tell it.  Don

I should note that I have this roll trigger in 3 of my current guns, my dads RO, and my old RO. While I notice a noticeable roll, my dad does not. If you press the trigger with the fatty pad of your trigger, you might not notice the roll. Its a very subtle thing, and you'll likely only notice it if you pull the trigger slowly with increasing pressure. You'll notice the roll more if you're pulling the trigger with the crease of your finger, because there's less flesh there, just bone, so when you feel the trigger move, you know you're actually moving the trigger, not just the flesh of your finger. Although has been noted before, not everyone can or chooses to use the crease of their finger. In addition, I do not know how the addition of a wide trigger shoe will affect the rolling sensation - I imagine you would feel less roll due to the shoe. Might consider removing that if you have one on.

Well I was just sitting here at the computer after finishing my dry firing with my Nelson.  So I closed my eyes and rested my shooting hand on my leg and just consecrated on the trigger squeeze and the feel of it.  Yes I can feel the roll, but this being the first time I have ever felt a trigger roll I have no idea if it is short or long.  I guess when shoot and even dry firing my mind is on the dot and I just feeling the break.  No2w I have something to work with.  This was with the fatty finger pad as I can't get to the grove with the shoe on. There is no way I am removing these fine looking shoes Frank made.  Don

Well I was just sitting here at the computer after finishing my dry firing with my Nelson.  So I closed my eyes and rested my shooting hand on my leg and just consecrated on the trigger squeeze and the feel of it.  Yes I can feel the roll, but this being the first time I have ever felt a trigger roll I have no idea if it is short or long.  I guess when shoot and even dry firing my mind is on the dot and I just feeling the break.  No2w I have something to work with.  This was with the fatty finger pad as I can't get to the grove with the shoe on. There is no way I am removing these fine looking shoes Frank made.  Don

At some point, you might find that results are more important to you than the expense of parts or the look of the gun. Another option would be to put the shoe on another gun that doesn't have the roll trigger. To each their own! I'm sure Frank would understand.

daflorc wrote:

Well I was just sitting here at the computer after finishing my dry firing with my Nelson.  So I closed my eyes and rested my shooting hand on my leg and just consecrated on the trigger squeeze and the feel of it.  Yes I can feel the roll, but this being the first time I have ever felt a trigger roll I have no idea if it is short or long.  I guess when shoot and even dry firing my mind is on the dot and I just feeling the break.  No2w I have something to work with.  This was with the fatty finger pad as I can't get to the grove with the shoe on. There is no way I am removing these fine looking shoes Frank made.  Don

At some point, you might find that results are more important to you than the expense of parts or the look of the gun. Another option would be to put the shoe on another gun that doesn't have the roll trigger. To each their own! I'm sure Frank would understand.

If I can't shoot good I can at least look good doing it.  It is easy to remove the shoes so I will try that.  I really don't think my poor shooting is because of the shoes but I am not so hard headed that I won't remove them.  I do have several other 1911s they would look just a good on.  I also have 2 extra of Franks shoes so if removing them doesn't help I can put those on.  Don