Reasoning for or against a M52 or a Pardini, etc?

Hello folks!
The only Bullseye matches that I have ever been involved with, I shot a .22 and a .45, as did everyone else except one old guy with a K-38. I notice folks on this forum discussing S&W M-52's, 1911's converted to .38 Special, Pardinis in .32 ACP, etc. My question(s) concern the need for these calibers. I assume the .38 or .32 or .380 or 9mm would be chosen due to less recoil,  maybe improved accuracy versus a persons ability with a .45. I also assume any of the listed calibers would satisfy the CF portion of a match instead of using a .45? If so, please tell me why I would be better off buying a M-52 in .38 Special, buying the flat-nose wadcutter bullets to feed it, and dealing with a pistol no longer in S&W inventory for parts like magazines, barrels, firing pins, springs, etc., over just buying a new Pardini in .32 caliber to use along with the .22 SP I already have, knowing I can get some level of parts and support for it? The same argument would go for a Jim Clark .38 Special 1911. I have one of Jim's hardball guns, but he aint around to make the WadCutter gun any more, much less the mags. Seems like the aggravation of tracking down parts or maintaining reliability would push most toward a Pardini or other .32 pistol? If people want a M-52 for nostalgia, count me in. I see some that look like they have a Python's blue, and my hand heads to the wallet, but are they more accurate than a Pardini, and can you get a full complement of reliable mags and spare parts for them? Assuming I "need" a CF pistol to complement my .45, what say you about the wisest choice? You can always just tell me to get a K-38, assuming I could shoot it Single Action only
Thanks!
Amanda

Speaking for myself I appreciate old guns. I think the vast majority of Master/High Master shooters will say to master the .45. Shoot it in center fire and 45. The .38 or .32 seem to work well for indoor 1800's That's where I shoot a 52-2 and an old Colt .38 wadcutter. My fondness for old target pistols has made me fairly adept at shooting a match with one magazine as my M107, M52-2, and Colt .38 wadcutter all share the annoying trait of having just one magazine that runs 100%

The M52 is a delight to shoot.  It however is a difficult pistol to shoot well.  You need a firm grip and consistent follow through. I have shot some really good scores with mine, but last spring I started having elbow and shoulder problems and my M52 scores suffered.  I have always shot the classic 2.8 gr of Bullseye, but now that my joints are good, I plan to load some WST and give it a try.  As for magazines, I have a lot, both metal and plastic follower and have never had a magazine related problem. I think many magazine problems are ammo related and not the magazine.

AllAces wrote:The M52 is a delight to shoot.  It however is a difficult pistol to shoot well.  You need a firm grip and consistent follow through. I have shot some really good scores with mine, but last spring I started having elbow and shoulder problems and my M52 scores suffered.  I have always shot the classic 2.8 gr of Bullseye, but now that my joints are good, I plan to load some WST and give it a try.  As for magazines, I have a lot, both metal and plastic follower and have never had a magazine related problem. I think many magazine problems are ammo related and not the magazine.

.38 wadcutter is in fact delight to shoot! I lucked out with my 2 examples. With the right magazine they both run flawlessly. Sadly I got into the game about 30 years late as far as easily acquiring magazines....and the number of people shooting matches that know how to tweak them is dwindling....As to shooting the 52 I personally believe it makes good shots better and not so good shots worse.

Hmm, simple answer. He who dies with the most toys wins. All you need is a great .22 and a great .45 and your set to shoot 2700's. It's that quest for that great one that keeps us searching. In a purely personal opinion no one needs a pistol that ends in a vowel.

It's kind of like the weekend hot rod garage.  No practical use for some hot rods except BSing and love of old stuff.

Amanda,
The .38 spl on the 1911 platform has less felt recoil than the .32 long. Most .32's have low bore line which recoils more directly into the arm/elbow. The 1911 barrel sits higher so the recoil is more of a roll. I have shot darn near every pistol out there with master/high master scores. In my opinion the best CF pistol is the 45. I shoot 3.4gr BE with 185 & 200 gr lswc bullets. It recoils very soft. Also the way I fit my barrels makes a slight difference as well. I have shot high 90's long line and 10x clean shortline targets with that load combination. I typically always shoot my 45 better than my 38 over an aggregate. But I do love the 38 spl.
Jon

Thanks to all for helping me keep my money in my pocket! I assumed that the Model 52 and similar platforms were an answer to a question that I did not need to ask. From the above, I'll keep on believing that, even though I must admit the allure of a fine M52 is right up there with a Python, which I have owned several of, but sold to fund my custom .45's. I miss the looks of the Python, but I never found the double action trigger worth a hoot. I'll try out your load today John

If you like to play at shooting, a 52 is a nice toy. If you like to seriously compete, spend your time and money elsewhere.

I fiddled with a 52 for years . 25yds & less it was OK , 50yds not so much in my hand anyway . If you have to have a 38 get a Colt OMM or by a beater S&W K frame & have it tuned up ,  rebarreled with a faster twist . Never had a 1911 38 but everyone claims they're easier to shoot . I'm also of the school that you need to shoot the 22 & 45 period . A 22 conversion setup like your wadgun will really help with you mastering the 45 . Your 22 scores will suffer at first , but it'll pay off in the long run . I think too many go off on tangents ( ie the best load , fancy target grips ,  reduced caliber for CF etc ) before mastering the guns we have to shoot . For me anyway it's easier to learn / master 1 trigger . Yes 38's are fun to shoot , but IMHO there's more user friendly platforms than the 52 . I too was enamored with the 52 until I had to confront the reality that it didn't help my scores but actually hurt them .

boatbum101 wrote:I'm also of the school that you need to shoot the 22 & 45 period.

Even if all you're going to shoot is commercial ammunition from near stock guns?

To address the OP:
From a total beginners perspective, I'd say the argument for Pardini's and Euro guns shooting 32 is because you already have the Eurogun and the conversion gives you a great CF gun that you're already comfortable with the grips and trigger.
Or you're also practicing Olympic/International shooting where Euroguns in 32 is the standard.

Otherwise, discussing other guns and calibres is because that's what people have and like. Does there need to be any other reason?

PS: As a bit of an aside, I personally think that bullseye and international shooting would stand a better chance of expanding and gaining popularity if there was more focus on stock gun competitions. So that the average shooter can stand a chance competing and gaining recognition with the guns and ammo they can get at their local store.

Amanda, I think I should clarify my personal position on purchasing a Model 52. I said earlier that all you need are two great pistols. Need has nothing to do with FUN. If I could carry the pistols I would shoot 12 pistols in every 2700. Since that is not practical (but legal) I make do with bringing different pistols to every match. Once again I need to mention that I shoot for fun. Scores are important so I don't shoot any junk pistols but having fun, to me, is the most important.

The perfect 2700 according to Len.
.22
SF  HS 106 with Victor barrel. Pistol will shoot tiny groups at 50 yds.
NMC  Nelson conversion on S&W frame
TF  A series model 41 (or newer model)
RF S&W 22A

CF
SF  952-2 that thing just shoots little groups
NMC  Kimber 38 super w/6" barrel
TF  Model 14-6 using WC (just because)
RF  Model 52 best pistol ever made for this match

.45
SF  460XVR with 45 Colt using 185gr FMJ's (heavy but tiny tiny groups)
NMC  Roddy Toyota Gold Cup
TF  Range Officer
RF  25-2  for the challenge

There is a whole different list if you get into wheel guns. Remember have fun

Seems like the 2700 game really narrows your options if you are serious, I have a model 41 and a 1911 and the 1911 has a legal trigger weight and my 41 is probably too light for a sanctioned match.  I actually think the lighter trigger on the 41 makes the 1911 a bit harder to shoot if that makes sense.  I am tempted to increase the trigger weight of my 41 to be closer to my 1911.  The option of a 1911 22 conversion makes a lot of sense.  I think the 2700 game is a lot of fun but I think it does eliminate a lot of guns such as a .32 or the 38 special.

I should add that I do lust after a model 52 they are a lot of fun to shoot.

LenV wrote:Amanda, I think I should clarify my personal position on purchasing a Model 52. I said earlier that all you need are two great pistols. Need has nothing to do with FUN. If I could carry the pistols I would shoot 12 pistols in every 2700. Since that is not practical (but legal) I make do with bringing different pistols to every match. Once again I need to mention that I shoot for fun. Scores are important so I don't shoot any junk pistols but having fun, to me, is the most important.

The perfect 2700 according to Len.
.22
SF  HS 106 with Victor barrel. Pistol will shoot tiny groups at 50 yds.
NMC  Nelson conversion on S&W frame
TF  A series model 41 (or newer model)
RF S&W 22A

CF
SF  952-2 that thing just shoots little groups

NMC  Kimber 38 super w/6" barrel
TF  Model 14-6 using WC (just because)
RF  Model 52 best pistol ever made for this match

.45
SF  460XVR with 45 Colt using 185gr FMJ's (heavy but tiny tiny groups)
NMC  Roddy Toyota Gold Cup
TF  Range Officer
RF  25-2  for the challenge

There is a whole different list if you get into wheel guns. Remember have fun

Len, 
You've inspired me. I can't quite do a different gun for every match. Yet.......

Actually, like an air pistol, shooting a S&W model 52 can help one to follow through. It tattles when even one shot isn't followed-through with tenacity.

Ooh, ooh. ooh. This is probably not going cheap. I mentioned it earlier on a revolver OP

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/648559573

LenV wrote:Ooh, ooh. ooh. This is probably not going cheap. I mentioned it earlier on a revolver OP

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/648559573

I guess it's listed as New, Never Fired.  I am betting it goes over $1800.  Don  If I hadn't of bought the junker I did I would have this one.  Don

Here's my perspective on the original question.  (And I'm all for buying more guns that I need, but I try to shoot the ones that get me the best overall scores.) I would recommend sticking with the .22 /.45 option until the .45 scores are equal to the .22 scores. Then making a decision on alternative calibers to try.  

Why?

Well, from my observations, most shooter can eventually shoot good to great .22 scores if they train, apply the fundamentals consistently and learn by building on what they are doing correctly.  However, there are some areas where the .22 has its limitations on training, and those are the areas of grip and trigger control, not necessarily recoil, but that's another subject.

You see, most shooters can and will use a lighter grip and get used to the lighter trigger of the .22.  And the ortho grips will even get them some additional points (maybe) but seems to encourage even lighter grip pressure.  But, that seems to work against shooting the .45, even with the lesser recoil of wadcutter loads and the 3.5 pound trigger.

So, in general and from my observations, the .45 requires a slightly more firmer grip, better trigger control and more consistency in both.  By learning to grip more firmly and consistently, and exercising precise trigger control with a heavier trigger, the .45 scores will improve.  AND, most importantly, those items will help the .22 scores improve even more.

So basically get a .22 you can grip and operate the trigger like on a .45.  And then shoot the .22 like a .45, not like you're shooting a .22.   I think you might find you get better with both, and may not need to go to the intermediate calibers to try and gain points. 

Just my thoughts.  Others may have differences or limitations (real or self imposed) that produce different results.  And that's OK, this was just MY observation.

"Ask a HM shooter to show you his shooting hand right after the .45 match.  You just might be able to tell how hard they are holding the grips."

CR

CR10X-
It took me a long time to realize that the harder I held the .45, the better my shots grouped. Unfortunately, it seems that when I tighten my grip up, my trigger finger appears to have an equal and opposite reaction
I keep working on it, as I assume it is an acquired muscle memory thing.
Thanks!
Amanda

Amanda4461 wrote:CR10X-
It took me a long time to realize that the harder I held the .45, the better my shots grouped. Unfortunately, it seems that when I tighten my grip up, my trigger finger appears to have an equal and opposite reaction
I keep working on it, as I assume it an acquired muscle memory thing.
Thanks!
Amanda

Developing independence of your trigger finger is a key point. Lots of dry fire will get it. 
Remember , to shoot the 45 well, you just need to do everything you do with the 22, only A WHOLE LOT BETTER!

Ok then what is my problem I shoot my 45 better then my 22 consistently  Both have 45 frames and the same grips.  Maybe it is just because I like a 45 so much.  Don

What CR10X said. I play now, but learned to grip the 45 the hard way. The Army understood the value of training with the .45. A 2700 (fired daily) consisted of a 900 fired with a .22 then two more 900s fired with .45 using full power hardball loads. That early training stamped into me how to grip any pistol. It is just as important today as it was 40 years ago. Probably can go a little less then hardball though.

Len   Don, the 45 makes bigger holes

LenV wrote:What CR10X said. I play now, but learned to grip the 45 the hard way. The Army understood the value of training with the .45. A 2700 (fired daily) consisted of a 900 fired with a .22 then two more 900s fired with .45 using full power hardball loads. That early training stamped into me how to grip any pistol. It is just as important today as it was 40 years ago. Probably can go a little less then hardball though.

Len   Don, the 45 makes bigger holes

Len that helps but in this case the big holes are where they are superposed to be.  I gave up on scoring I am just working on getting them all in the black of a target of the proper size for what distance i am shooting.  In fact there is no scoring rings.  I am on lesson 2 of the training manual  which is for RF but i can't go to the range with out shooting my 45.  I been on this darn lesson for over a month.  Always seam to pull two shots.  I know dryfire.  In fact I am not even going to the range next week just dry firing.  Don

Amanda:

You're absolutely right, gripping more firmly (I hesitate to say harder) can make the trigger operation (trigger finger) more difficult to operate.  The human hand was designed to be sympathetic in the finger movement department.  But training and attention will change that.  From musicians, magicians, shooters, etc. separating the actions of certain digits is key to great performance.  

First, place the first 2 fingers of the offhand in the palm of the shooting hand and grip the fingers like they were the gun grip.  Now operate the trigger finger like you're pulling the trigger.  Chances are you'll now be able to feel how all the other fingers and hand are moving when you are just trying to operate the trigger.  All that movement is being transferred to the gun.  Just keep training on moving the trigger finger only while maintaining a firm constant pressure with the rest of the fingers and hand.  

CR