Reasoning for or against a M52 or a Pardini, etc?

First topic message reminder :

Hello folks!
The only Bullseye matches that I have ever been involved with, I shot a .22 and a .45, as did everyone else except one old guy with a K-38. I notice folks on this forum discussing S&W M-52's, 1911's converted to .38 Special, Pardinis in .32 ACP, etc. My question(s) concern the need for these calibers. I assume the .38 or .32 or .380 or 9mm would be chosen due to less recoil,  maybe improved accuracy versus a persons ability with a .45. I also assume any of the listed calibers would satisfy the CF portion of a match instead of using a .45? If so, please tell me why I would be better off buying a M-52 in .38 Special, buying the flat-nose wadcutter bullets to feed it, and dealing with a pistol no longer in S&W inventory for parts like magazines, barrels, firing pins, springs, etc., over just buying a new Pardini in .32 caliber to use along with the .22 SP I already have, knowing I can get some level of parts and support for it? The same argument would go for a Jim Clark .38 Special 1911. I have one of Jim's hardball guns, but he aint around to make the WadCutter gun any more, much less the mags. Seems like the aggravation of tracking down parts or maintaining reliability would push most toward a Pardini or other .32 pistol? If people want a M-52 for nostalgia, count me in. I see some that look like they have a Python's blue, and my hand heads to the wallet, but are they more accurate than a Pardini, and can you get a full complement of reliable mags and spare parts for them? Assuming I "need" a CF pistol to complement my .45, what say you about the wisest choice? You can always just tell me to get a K-38, assuming I could shoot it Single Action only
Thanks!
Amanda

Amanda, Lots of great advice above from accomplished shooters above.  As far as the guns you mentioned, here's my $0.02: 

European 32s are fine guns, but they are optimized for 25 meter shooting a la Europe.  Sometimes they do OK at 50, but usually not so much.  Reloading for the 32 can be challenging using tiny amounts of powder 1.3-1.8 grains, which brings its own set of issues.  I've seen double holes in targets from HBWC skirts getting blown off from the rest of the bullet. I've seen 13 holes in a target with no alibis. That was a rare case, though.  But when they're on, they're really on! And recoil is not much more than a 22.  

It seems the 9mm has to be driven fast to be accurate for most guns. This makes the recoil about the same as a 45 wadgun. There's only a handful of smiths that can tune a Beretta 92 well enough for bullseye.  The only really good production 9mm for bullseye is the S&W 952 and they're $2500.  Sure, there's plenty of 9s out there and some can be made to shoot OK, but you still won't get the accuracy of a good 45 wadgun. Some here might disagree with me, though. 

I have yet to see a 380 on the line.  That would be an interesting experiment, though.

I like 38s, and I own a M52 and a K38 revolver.  The M52 although accurate as hell, is also difficult as hell to shoot well.  It is not at all forgiving, and I wouldn't recommend one for a beginner.  And yes, S&W doesn't make them nor will they even work on them anymore.  The 952 is now their premier CF gun. My opinion is that a 1911 in 38 Spl or 38 Super (light loads) would be your best bet. Recoil is mild and accuracy is excellent.  Another advantage is that it will now also qualify as a service pistol for EIC matches.  The problem I see with 1911 38 Spl is getting them to run smoothly and reliably.  It takes a good smith to tune them up. 

Then there's revolvers.  Back in the 50s and 60s, these were the "cat's meow", to borrow a term from that era. They can be quite accurate with not too much work.  Those "old guys" were actually breaking 2600 with revolvers before the days of accurized 1911s. You can load them as light or heavy as you want (within reason) and they will still function, and you don't loose your brass. Plus, they are just plain fun to shoot!  There is a learning curve with the timed and especially rapid fire stages.  I actually thumb the hammer back during rapid fire.  That takes some practice, but what fun! 

Hope this long winded speech helps.

I wondered if a K-38 had to be shot double-action during rapid fire. Now I know

Hi Amanda,
Regarding 45 grip pressure, I was told by long time BE shooter to squeeze the grip until the oil ran out. Sounds wisdom-like but oh so not true: a match shot like this will soon cause tremors from exhausted forearm muscles and terrible shakes.

The correct way to squeeze a grip is with moderate pressure only and most of the gripping should be done by the middle and ring fingers (the little finger just rests on the grip). You should be able to use the trigger finger independently of the gripping fingers. See excellent discussion of pistol shooting techniques at this air pistol link (pistol shooting techniques). All the fundamentals for good pistol shooting skills are covered here.

Regarding wether to get an intermediate centerfire caliber (32, 38, 9mm): there are two schools of thought. If your goal is to become a master-level shooter as fast as you can, get a decent 45 and hone your 45 shooting skills. If, however, the 45 is quite challenging, an intermediate caliber enables one to develop proficiency with smaller centerfire calibers. Regarding equipment: buy the best you can afford at the time. If at all possible, try a pistol before you buy one. If you've bought a decent (capable of good accuracy) pistol and don't like it; stick with it as your dislike may be skill-related. Your enjoyment of any firearm relates to how well you shoot it.

Another thing to ponder. Unless you are well-off, you need to start thinking about reloading for your centerfire. You'll see after 6 months of shooting that your bullet bill is growing. By loading your own, you can make ammo that your pistol likes. This is a great sport, one which we can never master it all and a sport where you learn a lot about yourself. I encourage you to read a book on shooting fundamentals like The Bullseye Mind.

That's all the sage advice I have at the moment. cheers, dipnet

About gripping the 45 or any pistol. I was taught to squeeze the grip until your hand/pistol started to tremble then back off the pressure until the shakes stop. It has the benefit of keeping the grip consistent and over time will increase your gripping pressure. Also over time you will know where that point is just before you get the shakes and won't have to squeeze it to death anymore. "Caution" you may develop a crusher grip and larger hands.

Len

CR10X wrote:Here's my perspective on the original question.  (And I'm all for buying more guns that I need, but I try to shoot the ones that get me the best overall scores.) I would recommend sticking with the .22 /.45 option until the .45 scores are equal to the .22 scores. Then making a decision on alternative calibers to try.  

Why?

Well, from my observations, most shooter can eventually shoot good to great .22 scores if they train, apply the fundamentals consistently and learn by building on what they are doing correctly.  However, there are some areas where the .22 has its limitations on training, and those are the areas of grip and trigger control, not necessarily recoil, but that's another subject.

You see, most shooters can and will use a lighter grip and get used to the lighter trigger of the .22.  And the ortho grips will even get them some additional points (maybe) but seems to encourage even lighter grip pressure.  But, that seems to work against shooting the .45, even with the lesser recoil of wadcutter loads and the 3.5 pound trigger.

So, in general and from my observations, the .45 requires a slightly more firmer grip, better trigger control and more consistency in both.  By learning to grip more firmly and consistently, and exercising precise trigger control with a heavier trigger, the .45 scores will improve.  AND, most importantly, those items will help the .22 scores improve even more.

So basically get a .22 you can grip and operate the trigger like on a .45.  And then shoot the .22 like a .45, not like you're shooting a .22.   I think you might find you get better with both, and may not need to go to the intermediate calibers to try and gain points. 

Just my thoughts.  Others may have differences or limitations (real or self imposed) that produce different results.  And that's OK, this was just MY observation.

"Ask a HM shooter to show you his shooting hand right after the .45 match.  You just might be able to tell how hard they are holding the grips."

CR

This is the route I am taking, as tempting as it is to build a hardball gun.
Thanks, good advice right here.
Ron