Anticipating recoil.

Is there a sure fire way to rid one's self of anticipating recoil with the .45? I think I'm getting worse instead of better. Maybe someone can give me that one bit of advice that I have yet to try and it will cure this slump I'm in. I'm shooting near Expert scores with the .22 in training today, but couldn't break 700 with the .45 if my life depended on it. Toss the advise out there, verbally abuse me if necessary, I can take it, I need it. Thank you.

Find the lightest load that will cycle your pistol reliably. Less recoil will help to alleviate some of the anticipation. The more you shoot the more your body becomes acclimated to the noise/sound and feel. Unfortunately most shooters do not dry fire enough and think they have good trigger control. But really they are snatching/jerking shots. Learn to continually squeeze the trigger. Crisp triggers require more effort to break shots clean. Long rolls take too long to break. A short to medium roll lets you feel that the trigger is moving which leads to confidence in squeezing the trigger. Practice, practice, practice. I wouldn't tell you this but John Bickar would probably tell you to have a beer to celebrate your successes!
Jon

Perhaps your grip on the 45 is weak? AMU says to grip so tightly (with second and third fingers, only!) until your hand starts to shake -- then ease off enough to eliminate the shake.

The other thing is to switch to shooting air pistol for most practice. Zero recoil so you can concentrate on grip and trigger. Cost of shooting is about 2 to 4¢ per shot. You can do it anywhere you've got 11yards or more. Crosman 1600 is very accurate and not expensive (you will need a source of high pressure air). There are good CO2 pistols available, too. Gamo targets are good but not identical to Bullseye -- no big deal.

Dry fire on a blank wall.

Go to the range and set up a blank piece of cardboard. Dry fire on the blank target then load one round and concentrate on using the exact same trigger pull.

Think in your head, Steady Squeeze.

I'm on my 3rd season and what I can tell you is there are no free lunches when shooting the 45. I've had issues from day one with recoil but feel I'm finally on the road to not flinching, when I do snatch a shot it's usually a 7 or 8 instead of a 5 or 6 or off paper.

I've never done a lot of dry firing, it's like watching paint dry, I do a lot of air pistol practice. Get good ear muffs and use them with ear plugs. As Jon said use the lightest loads that reliably cycle your pistol. At the end of the day about 15,000 - 20,000 rounds will get you on your way of not flinching.

I can share my own experiences and I'm sure there will be disagreements.  The first gun I ever handled was a 1911 in the Navy. The first shot ever was a full load 230 gr FMJ "hardball".  In the following 6 months, I shot during my lunch hour with unlimited supply of hardball ammo and was asked to the joined RTC (Recruit Training Center) team at Great Lakes Naval Base. Our team came in first place that year in 1977.  It was one of the highlights in my life learning to shoot under expert supervision, being on a team, and going to the Chief's club after a match and have a few beers with the guys. Being an officer, I believed it was frown upon to co-mingle with the enlisted guys, but who cared. 

It was so fun shooting the .45 that I hated shooting the .22.  I still dislike shooting the .22 even today.  My advice is to start shooting more full power hardball loads for a few weeks and not touching reduced loads, and have fun doing so.  When you decide to start shooting reduced bullseye loads again, start with a few strings of hardball first and then switch.  Of course you'll find it much easier to handle the recoil now.  You're now comparing your bullseye .45 pistol to a hardball pistol, and I'm sure your anticipation problem will be gone.

If you follow the advice given in this forum, I'm sure dozens of things are automated by now by the time you pull the trigger.  Relax and think mainly "sights" and "trigger" and have fun.  Try not to over think.  The "X's" and "10's" will follow.

Mike38, look up Steve Turner from Illinois and I'm sure he'll be happy to assist you further.  He's a master shooter with many years of experience and very easy to talk to.

I'd listen to a +2650 shooter to see what they had to say.  There aren't that many that post here.  In case you want to listen to someone that's not quite there yet...

As for anticipating recoil, my personal experience may help clarify some ideas to check out.  Lot's of people, including me, will tell you to dry fire, work on your grip, be sure the trigger is mechanically smooth and consistent, make sure your vision is good, double hearing protection - plugs and muffs, etc.  But I think understanding some of the basic causes of what we call "anticipating recoil" or "jerking", "flinching", etc. may help you identify some specific areas to look at. 

One of the key things that all these suggestions are trying to do is to help make the operation of the trigger smooth and automatic or subconscious or whatever you want to call it.  A lot of anticipating recoil comes from shooter "making" the shot go off, so they anticipate when the gun is going to fire.  

Another key area (and I hate to use negatives) is to not "try and pick off the shot".  Again, this goes back to "making the shot go off".  Don't do that, let the gun fire naturally and smoothly while you are watching the wobble get smaller, not when you think it quits moving.  That is not the correct time to "try and fire the gun".  If the gun does not seem to go off naturally (seeming by itself) then we need more trigger training in the dry fire mode.  

In general, unless there are physical issues, recoil is not generally the problem.  It's not having a process to help the gun / trigger operate smoothly and without forcing the trigger press.  

That's what all the dryfiring is for. Getting the trigger to operate smoothly and naturally and respond almost automatically to the visual input from the sights.  When that happens, there is no anticipation, just a response to the visual clue of the wobble / sight area getting smaller.  

Not to mention it helps build up the hand (grip), arm, body, etc. from a physical strength standpoint.  

Another thing is that when dryfiring, if you feel you are about to "make the gun go off", rather than "naturally and smoothly increasing the trigger pressure", start the dryfire over again.  This is training, so you have time to start over and develop a better process. Don't be afraid to abort the shot before the hammer falls.  The whole purpose of the dryfiring is to get better at what needs to happen before the hammer falls. 

Anyway, I'm tired of typing.  There are pages and pages of notes in my journal on this issue and its one of the things I keep going back to.  Even today, I can trace a lot of my "not optimum" shots to being too aware of the trigger and trying to make the shot go off rather than just starting over.  If you have any specific questions or comments, I'd like to  help or listen to anything that might help me.

CR

Mike38, I also have some problems with recoil, but it really shows up at rapid fire for me. I'm thinking my areas to work on are more dry fire..... I also need a stronger grip,  muscle tone,  ( I got one of those SuperBalls that you pull the string and gyroscopic inner ball gives you resistance as you rotate the ball) what a forearm strengthener. I need all the muscle help I can get at 65. Like a fellow shooter said to me it's between those eyes. I like to say getting my mind right and lots of dedication and discipline, which I really need to start.
 
 Stan

Finding a lighter / less recoiling load that is reliable in my 1911 seems like a simple and logical first step to take. Right now, I use 200 grain LSWC over 3.9 grains of Titegroup and a 14# recoil spring. This set up has given me the last 500+ rounds of reliable, trouble free, and accurate ammo. Maybe only two failures in the past 1000 rounds, so I can live with that. So here's what I've done. Ordered a sample pack (100 pcs) of 185 grain HPLSWC from Precision Delta. Being the 185 grain hollow point has the same profile as a 200 grain, I should be able to drop the charge (and not worry about too empty of case capacity) to say, 3.7 grains or even 3.5 grains. I also ordered a 12# recoil spring. Hoping this combination will give me a light recoiling, yet reliable loading. I will test this set up when materials arrive and report back. I want to thank everyone for the comments, and please keep them coming. Even if I don't reply until my next test session, rest assured I am reading the comments, and taking notes. Thank you!

Mike, I'm also a marksman class, only about 80%, so take what I say with a grain a salt. I have a frame mount dot and use a 185 hpswc with 4.0 gr. of Bullseye and a 11 lb spring in my Springfield RO. 
  Your scores are good, I think you'll turn the corner into the next class eal soon.
  Stan

chopper wrote:Mike, I'm also a marksman class, only about 80%, so take what I say with a grain a salt. I have a frame mount dot and use a 185 hpswc with 4.0 gr. of Bullseye and a 11 lb spring in my Springfield RO. 
  Your scores are good, I think you'll turn the corner into the next class eal soon.
  Stan

That build should allow for much lighter loads.

Chopper, I think a big source of your recoil difficulty is the 11 lb. recoil spring.  10-11 lbs are commonly used for slide mounted scopes.  Without the heavier weight on your slide, you would benefit by using a higher weight recoil spring to absorb the recoil.

Thanks Chris and X, I have lots of 4.0 gr loaded so I'll try a 12,13,or 14lb I have and see if that helps some. Chris, would 3.5gn be too light and what spring would you suggest? I'll be shooting indoors this fall and a lighter load would be great for 50'.
Stan

11# recoil spring and 3.5gr BE with 185 or 200 gr lswc should work fine. You can use same load for long & short line.
Jon

There is a lot of discussion here about the mental (trigger control) and the equipment ( recoil spring) but I notice that no one has mentioned the physical except for some mention of the grip. A firm grip is very important with the 22 thru the 45 but a good lockup is way more important for the 45. There has been some discussion previously on this forum about how to achieve a good lockup . Even some discussion about the importance. However, being of the opinion that it is extremely important I will attempt to explain how I achieve lockup. At the command of "ready to the right" I roll my entire arm to the right (right handed) by entire arm I mean pistol, wrist and elbow. At the command "ready to the left" I roll only my wrist (and pistol) back to the upright position and raise my arm. While raising my arm I also increase pressure on my grip and lock my wrist by tightening up my muscles in the wrist. This may not cure your fear of the recoil but it will certainly prepare you for it. When I increase my grip I increase pressure on my middle and ring finger until pistol starts to quiver and then back off until quiver stops. That's my .02.

Len

LenV wrote:There is a lot of discussion here about the mental (trigger control) and the equipment ( recoil spring) but I notice that no one has mentioned the physical except for some mention of the grip. A firm grip is very important with the 22 thru the 45 but a good lockup is way more important for the 45. There has been some discussion previously on this forum about how to achieve a good lockup . Even some discussion about the importance. However, being of the opinion that it is extremely important I will attempt to explain how I achieve lockup. At the command of "ready to the right" I roll my entire arm to the right (right handed) by entire arm I mean pistol, wrist and elbow. At the command "ready to the left" I roll only my wrist (and pistol) back to the upright position and raise my arm. While raising my arm I also increase pressure on my grip and lock my wrist by tightening up my muscles in the wrist. This may not cure your fear of the recoil but it will certainly prepare you for it. When I increase my grip I increase pressure on my middle and ring finger until pistol starts to quiver and then back off until quiver stops. That's my .02.

Len

I do the same, i've noticed a lot of high level shooters rotate so where the crease of the arm in facing inwards and not upwards. Another thing to look at is the way to stand, i've got a nice size slowfire muscle hangout out so i stand more 45 degree or tiny bit more forward then the 150lb guy next to me who is very bladed to the target 90 degree.

Thank you Jon, that sure will help me.
  Len and Chris, I'm trying that "gangsta" style aim and then rolling vertical right now, and feeling my arm with non shooting hand. I can say it tightens the bicep and tricep muscles more, I added the harder grip then backed off, that's nice really nice. It really isolates those muscles for a better lockup. I will have to add this to my shot plan until it's ingrained  in the brain.
  Man, you guys are the best, thank you all.
Stan

I dry fire a lot. But once the trigger breaks I keep the dot on target or on my aiming area on the wall for moments beyond the hammer falling. The reason for this is to learn follow through. The hand and grip can't relax as soon as the shot breaks. You gotta stick with it through out the shot till the end. If recoil causes you to break grip in any way including less strength in your grip then you need to work on a position the gun sets in your hand and a grip pressure that won't let the gun come lose. 

Example: I recently had the wrong spring in my 22 for the wrong Ammo I was using in practice. The gun fired the first shot, ejected the spent cartridge casing, cocked the hammer for the second shot, but failed to pick up the next round and chamber it. So the second shot went click instead of bang. To my surprise I thought "well that's not right - the gun was supposed to go bang and carry off target and return but instead it went click and the dot stayed put on the black." The dot did not jerk bounce down. It didn't go anywhere. Just stayed.

That's follow through to one aspect. Making sure you execute proper trigger control is also part of follow through. In dry fire practice if you see the dot jerk off in any direction then you've made a mistake of some kind depending on which direction the dot flew off to. The dot should stay put and not move through the press of the trigger, the break of the trigger, the fall of the hammer and impact the hammer has on the gun. 

Recoil is a response to the cartridge going bang. Coming up with a position, stance, and grip that allows you to recover from recoil and return the dot to target for your follow up shot is important. With the 45 I was shooting 4.0 gr of Bullseye under a 200 gr bullet. Recoil was mild for me. I have weak little arms. Recovery time was longer. It gave me the sense that I was rushed in rapid fire. 

When I changed to 3.4 gr of Bullseye still using a 200 gr bullet recoil was much less and recovery time quickened some allowing me to not be so jerky with my arm during recovery and returning the dot to target. 

It's a game of pin the tail on the donkey. The dot is the tail. The target, the donkey. Stick that dot on that target until recoil carries the gun up and away. If it goes click not bang dot should stay put. I lean in slightly to help keep the gun from pushing me back and breaking my balance from multiple shots in sustained fire. 

Your recovery should almost be automatic in the sense that you are so focoused on keeping the dot on target that even when something impacts that (recoil) the gun wants to return because that's where you're telling your arm and hand to have and KEEP the gun at. Like a rubber band. Gun recoils away from target but when the force of recoil has expired the gun arm returns it to target. Yes you have to aim but that's more fine tuning of where the gun is pointed. Your position, stance, and grip should allow the gun to return to where it was. 

I have not been shooting this game long, but I've excelled quickly and enjoy the sport. Keep at it. Don't think "shoot the gun". Learn a trigger press and the gun should feel like it's doing its own thing and you're along for the ride. Just don't Ben slow about it. You only got 10 seconds! 

Tried this new load a few hours ago. 3.6 grains of TiteGroup, 185 grain LSWCHP bullets by Precision Delta, and a 12# recoil spring. Accurate, feeds and functions flawlessly. Best part, I was able to keep all the shots on a 25 yard B8C repair center at timed fire cadence, which may not be much for some people, but it's an improvement for me. 
 
I think my major improvement comes from the mental part of the game. I am working on convincing myself that there is no reason to flinch. Sure, there is an explosion going off in my hand, less than 3 feet away from my face, but nothing bad is going to happen. It's just noise. It's not going to hurt me. Don't flinch, don't jerk, don't anticipate the recoil. Just go along for the ride. Put the holes in the black you dummy, put the holes in the black.

Today I tried a load of 3.5 grains of TiteGroup under 200 grain LSWC bullets, and 12# recoil spring. Shot 25 rounds and worked perfectly. (Prior was 3.9 grains, 200 grain LSWC and 14# recoil spring). Maybe just a touch more recoil than the 185gr bullets, but still less than prior loads. I have 1500 200gr bullets I need to use up, and then I'll stick with the 185s. Does anyone see a problem with this load of 3.5 grains of powder? If it works, use it, right?

Yup.  If it works and accuracy is there...

I'd like to mention a totally different way to fix anticipation/recoil/flinching.  It came from the book "The Pistol Shooter's Treasury".  I can't remember which of the authors said it now, but the advice was that "it's nothing that a box of hardball won't cure".

So simple.

Not believing it would work, I went to the range with a box of 100 Winchester White Box 230 grain ammo, and just had fun shooting.  I didn't intend to shoot at a target, but I figured that would look funny, so I went to the end of the range and shot away at a steel plate hanging there.  To be tricky, I loaded six magazines with 1, 2, 3, 4, and occasionally 5 bullets, mixed them up, and fired away.  The "game" changed when I unexpectedly hit the steel, so from then on I was aiming at it.  By the time the 100 bullets were used up, so was my flinch.  The 1911 no longer felt heavy, the noise seemed to have gone away, and while the gun was still recoiling, I no longer cared.  In no way did I "fight" the recoil.  

As I see it, the problem is your body is "anticipating" the shot, so it does all these goofy things.  However, if you more or less get "bored" by shooting the large rounds, you get acclimated to it, and there's no longer anything to anticipate.


I assume I'm going to need to do this every so often, for a while, until I'm totally used to the 230 gr ammo, but I plan to load the target rounds as has been suggested here in these forums.  

(Similarly, I felt for a while that my Les Baer Premiere II was a big, heavy gun, and after firing for a while, it felt even heavier.  So, I started dry firing with a 1.5 pound wrist weight on each arm.  Between that, an the above hardball exercise, the 1911 started to feel like it was only made of plastic.)

I think what I'm suggesting here will simply get rid of the "anticipation"; all the other suggestions I'm sure I need to follow as well, so I get to shoot the 1911 as well as I'd like to.

Perhaps you never saw my post about curing the flinch. Pretty much what you just wrote with a little tiny bit of overkill.

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t4788-curing-the-flinch-redneck-style?highlight=redneck

Hey, I missed that, but what a wonderful idea.

This isn't mine, but I've got the same gun - second gun I ever bought (first was just like Dirty Harry!!).  I guess it could load it up with 6 rounds of 44 Magnum, and later on that tiny 1911 will feel like a toy, eh?



......back to reality though, firing a full box of hardball works just like the fellows who wrote the book said it would.  By the time I was half way through, the 1911 no longer had the same "punch", and there was no more anticipation than with a 22.