Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
+11
jmdavis
Jack H
Wobbley
CR10X
LenV
john bickar
Rotwang
Ghillieman
james r chapman
kjanracing
Oleg G
15 posters
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Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
For the last few weeks I included lots of one-shot rapid-fire drills into my dry fire training routine and it helped me to significantly improve my groups in slow fire, as well as rapid fire.
I made a long (15 mins) recording consisting of a sting of partial range commands and one-shot drills for rapid fire.
Each sequence has:
- "Ready on the right"
- "Ready on the left"
- "Ready on the firing line"
- Horn sound to start
- 2 seconds
- Horn sound to stop
Training to this cadence for SF with dry fire really showed me when I need to abort my shots.
Today I used this recording as a cadence for my slow fire practice on the range. The results showed marked improvement over the previous practice sessions.
I am thinking of using this recorded cadence during SF strings in a match. I have the recording on my phone and can connect the phone to my electronic ear protection headphones, so only I can hear what is playing on the phone.
The question I have is - will I be breaking any rules by using this recorded cadence during a match as an aid?
Thanks for advice as always,
Oleg.
I made a long (15 mins) recording consisting of a sting of partial range commands and one-shot drills for rapid fire.
Each sequence has:
- "Ready on the right"
- "Ready on the left"
- "Ready on the firing line"
- Horn sound to start
- 2 seconds
- Horn sound to stop
Training to this cadence for SF with dry fire really showed me when I need to abort my shots.
Today I used this recording as a cadence for my slow fire practice on the range. The results showed marked improvement over the previous practice sessions.
I am thinking of using this recorded cadence during SF strings in a match. I have the recording on my phone and can connect the phone to my electronic ear protection headphones, so only I can hear what is playing on the phone.
The question I have is - will I be breaking any rules by using this recorded cadence during a match as an aid?
Thanks for advice as always,
Oleg.
Oleg G- Posts : 608
Join date : 2016-05-12
Location : North-Eastern PA
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
Wow, I've been doing that exact same thing the last few training sessions? I was going to ask that question too. Following!
Kurt
Kurt
kjanracing- Posts : 410
Join date : 2015-02-17
Location : Arvada, Colorado
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
3.22 Cell Phones and other shooting aids:
Shooters are responsible to ensure all devices in their possession forward of
the ready line are silenced and communication disabled (e.g.: mute
all sound producing devices and airplane mode for cell phones.
Shooters are responsible to ensure all devices in their possession forward of
the ready line are silenced and communication disabled (e.g.: mute
all sound producing devices and airplane mode for cell phones.
james r chapman- Admin
- Posts : 6359
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 75
Location : HELL, Michigan
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
Jim, thanks for the explanation. However, the rule seems to be designed to prevent the sound from accidentally distracting other shooters. In my case, I deliberately connect the phone to my headphones with an audio cable to prevent any sound emanating from the speakers and distracting other shooters. Even if I put the phone into the airplane mode, I can still play the recorded cadence into my headphones.
Or am I missing something?
Regards,
Oleg.
Or am I missing something?
Regards,
Oleg.
Oleg G- Posts : 608
Join date : 2016-05-12
Location : North-Eastern PA
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
Just re-read the rule-book section. It seems that the use of the sound-producing shooting aids (i.e. cell phones) is allowed, as long as they do not emit sound, which is audible to other shooters on the line and has no chance of distracting the line.
Or is it my wishful thinking?
Or is it my wishful thinking?
Oleg G- Posts : 608
Join date : 2016-05-12
Location : North-Eastern PA
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
Great idea for practice, eventually you will get the cadence down and wont need it for a match.
Don't be the guy at Perry who has their phone accidentally go off on the line....
Don't be the guy at Perry who has their phone accidentally go off on the line....
Ghillieman- Posts : 468
Join date : 2012-02-14
Location : TEXAS
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
I think they allow muted, no sound, devices for use as stop watches.
I can't seem to agree that 'no sound' means only that sound you can hear.
I can't seem to agree that 'no sound' means only that sound you can hear.
james r chapman- Admin
- Posts : 6359
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 75
Location : HELL, Michigan
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
Oleg G wrote:Just re-read the rule-book section. It seems that the use of the sound-producing shooting aids (i.e. cell phones) is allowed, as long as they do not emit sound, which is audible to other shooters on the line and has no chance of distracting the line.
Or is it my wishful thinking?
3.20 ...Only sound reducing devices may be worn. ...
3.22 Cell Phones and other shooting aids: Shooters are responsible to ensure all devices in their possession forward of the ready line are silenced and communication disabled (e.g.: mute all sound producing devices and airplane mode for cell phones).
Mute would mean that the device doesn't emit any sound. There was a rule before to prevent shooters from being able to hear the coach and then they started to crack down on beeping timers. you had to keep them quite by cutting the wires if needed.
It may be illegal to wear a hearing aid or muffs that amplify sounds or play music. I have some memory from shooting international where you weren't allowed to have a music player
Rotwang- Posts : 95
Join date : 2011-06-23
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
Yep, Murphy's Law will always prevail: "if something can go wrong, it WILL go wrong." So, as enticing as this idea is to me, I will not use the recording during the match.
Thanks for the enlightenment, gentlemen!
Thanks for the enlightenment, gentlemen!
Oleg G- Posts : 608
Join date : 2016-05-12
Location : North-Eastern PA
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
Not to mention while your device is telling you ready on the firing line, the line is being told to stand down and your the only guy standing there pointing his gun down range wondering why the targets haven't turned! lol
james r chapman- Admin
- Posts : 6359
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 75
Location : HELL, Michigan
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
I commend you for your efforts to have a predictable, repeatable, consistent set of commands to develop a predictable, repeatable, consistent shot plan. You're showing signs that you "get it".
What would happen if you internalized those commands, and stated them to yourself subconsciously before each slow fire shot?
(Oops, I may have just given away a High Master "secret"!)
What would happen if you internalized those commands, and stated them to yourself subconsciously before each slow fire shot?
(Oops, I may have just given away a High Master "secret"!)
john bickar- Posts : 2269
Join date : 2011-07-09
Age : 100
Location : Menlo Park, CA
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
I have to wear earmuffs that amplify the commands or I wouldn't hear anything. They mute the firing sounds automatically of course. My big question is how would you ever get them in sync with the range commands. I have had the three seconds between commands stretch to 5 seconds and also have seen commands as fast as speedy Gonzales. Did that age me? Seriously, you could find yourself shooting early or late and wondering what happened. The only consistent thing is the 10 or 20 seconds that targets face.
Len
Len
LenV- Posts : 4758
Join date : 2014-01-24
Age : 74
Location : Oregon
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
He and I are only using it for slow fire cadence. I started using the Drill program in the bullseye commands app training to shoot the turn. I noticed my groups were not too bad. So ought I'd try shooting a slow fire string using the commands. I had good results, so I plan to use that drill often in training. TF and RF I'd listen and follow the real commands as usual.
kjanracing- Posts : 410
Join date : 2015-02-17
Location : Arvada, Colorado
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
3.22 Cell Phones and other shooting aids: Shooters are responsible to ensure all devices in their possession forward of the ready line are silenced and communication disabled (e.g.: mute all sound producing devices and airplane mode for cell phones).
Silenced and mute by definition means than no sound can be produced. If only the shooter can hear it, it is not mute or silenced.
Just my interpretation. However I can seen the reason, even in this case since the shooter must be able to hear the range commands, with no confusion, at ALL times.
Please continue the discussions and I would love to hear from a NRA ref on this.
Thanks.
CR
Silenced and mute by definition means than no sound can be produced. If only the shooter can hear it, it is not mute or silenced.
Just my interpretation. However I can seen the reason, even in this case since the shooter must be able to hear the range commands, with no confusion, at ALL times.
Please continue the discussions and I would love to hear from a NRA ref on this.
Thanks.
CR
CR10X- Posts : 1777
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
John Bickar,
Thanks for giving away "the secret"!
My goal for using this recording is indeed to achieve predictable, repeatable and consistent shot execution (execution of the shot process) in slow fire. Thinking about it, I see that relying on a "techno-crutch" may not be best in the long run. So, I will follow your advice and figure out the way to follow my cadence without the help of the recording.
The easiest way I see to accomplish this is to come up with a "code-phrase" or even a simple count, which will follow the timing of the cadence. And then, endless repetition of the correct sequence...
Regards,
Oleg.
Thanks for giving away "the secret"!
My goal for using this recording is indeed to achieve predictable, repeatable and consistent shot execution (execution of the shot process) in slow fire. Thinking about it, I see that relying on a "techno-crutch" may not be best in the long run. So, I will follow your advice and figure out the way to follow my cadence without the help of the recording.
The easiest way I see to accomplish this is to come up with a "code-phrase" or even a simple count, which will follow the timing of the cadence. And then, endless repetition of the correct sequence...
Regards,
Oleg.
Oleg G- Posts : 608
Join date : 2016-05-12
Location : North-Eastern PA
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
Cecil and Jim,
From the perspective of interpreting the rules, I think that the best approach is to understand the intent behind the rule. In this case, has the rule been created to:
1. Eliminate distractions to all competitors, which can be introduced by sound-producing devices, or
2. Remove any unfair advantage that a competitor may gain from a form of coaching provided by the sound-producing device
If the intent behind the rule is my second point, than your reading is 100% correct and no such device can be used on the firing line for any reason whatsoever.
If the intent behind the rule is my first point, one may argue that sound, which is inaudible to other competitors, is not breaking the rule.
As I said in my earlier post, I will not use my recording in a match but other opinions on the rule will be very interesting.
Best Regards,
Oleg.
From the perspective of interpreting the rules, I think that the best approach is to understand the intent behind the rule. In this case, has the rule been created to:
1. Eliminate distractions to all competitors, which can be introduced by sound-producing devices, or
2. Remove any unfair advantage that a competitor may gain from a form of coaching provided by the sound-producing device
If the intent behind the rule is my second point, than your reading is 100% correct and no such device can be used on the firing line for any reason whatsoever.
If the intent behind the rule is my first point, one may argue that sound, which is inaudible to other competitors, is not breaking the rule.
As I said in my earlier post, I will not use my recording in a match but other opinions on the rule will be very interesting.
Best Regards,
Oleg.
Oleg G- Posts : 608
Join date : 2016-05-12
Location : North-Eastern PA
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
Oleg,
Or,
3) for safety. To make sure all competitors can hear the range commands, (cease fire! Boat in the impact area!), Without distraction from audio devices.
Only the voices in your head allowed.
Or,
3) for safety. To make sure all competitors can hear the range commands, (cease fire! Boat in the impact area!), Without distraction from audio devices.
Only the voices in your head allowed.
james r chapman- Admin
- Posts : 6359
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 75
Location : HELL, Michigan
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
Jim
A fantastic point, agreed wholeheartedly! But now, that you bring up the voices in my head...
Regards,
Oleg.
A fantastic point, agreed wholeheartedly! But now, that you bring up the voices in my head...
Regards,
Oleg.
Oleg G- Posts : 608
Join date : 2016-05-12
Location : North-Eastern PA
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
Having been part of the discussion on this rule for the last revision, do not underestimate the simplicity of the words. Aside from safety, no confusion of range commands, interference with other competitors; coaching was also discussed. Coaching from an external source is not allowed in individual matches. The RO can't tell if a shooter is listening to music, gun porn, coaching or the news if the shooter is jacked into a device that produces sound.
Listen to John and the voices inside. As the saying goes, if a crutch is needed, one is probably not going to win the race. I think this is probably a great training aid if it works for you. But training is training and matches are for competing.
Good shooting.
CR
Listen to John and the voices inside. As the saying goes, if a crutch is needed, one is probably not going to win the race. I think this is probably a great training aid if it works for you. But training is training and matches are for competing.
Good shooting.
CR
CR10X- Posts : 1777
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
Even during training, running the full command set for each shot may be counter productive. Time your self for getting on the target from the rest position then program a timer to give a ding or tone to start and then at your time to settle plus two or three seconds. But that's only for practice.
Wobbley- Admin
- Posts : 4776
Join date : 2015-02-12
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
Personal audio during a match? Simple answer....No.
Jack H- Posts : 2693
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 75
Location : Oregon
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
U
For slowfire.
Is the line ready?
3...2...1..
The line is Ready
3...2...1..
Ready on the Right?
3...2...1..
Ready on the left?
3...2...1..
Ready on the firing line.
3...2...1..
Commence.
Just run what you need in your head. The side effect is that you occupy your matches mind. By the way, the above is the script that many match directors and the matches at Perry use.im not sure that it's a good idea to train tomshoot to command for slowfire. I will let others comment on that.
For slowfire.
Is the line ready?
3...2...1..
The line is Ready
3...2...1..
Ready on the Right?
3...2...1..
Ready on the left?
3...2...1..
Ready on the firing line.
3...2...1..
Commence.
Just run what you need in your head. The side effect is that you occupy your matches mind. By the way, the above is the script that many match directors and the matches at Perry use.im not sure that it's a good idea to train tomshoot to command for slowfire. I will let others comment on that.
jmdavis- Posts : 1409
Join date : 2012-03-23
Location : Virginia
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
Beginning pop/rock musicians will use a metronome to develop and sharpen their sense of timing, but they learn to wean themselves off of it and use the drummer/bass guitarist as a timing reference.
Blackbird- Posts : 50
Join date : 2017-08-30
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
The old rule used to be - no sound emitting devices forward of the ready line. This was to keep one person's device from distracting another person.
Now with multi-function personal devices that so happen to have a phone as part of this functions, the intent of the rule and its evolution would make for an answer of NO to having something playing in your ear only.
Training is one thing, matches another. I used to shoot offhand indoor practice with a boombox at my feet blaring metal rock at me. It altered my sense of time and forced a higher degree of concentration, plus distracted me between shots. The more distracted away time and more intense concentration while in the shot process I found to be very beneficial.
Now with multi-function personal devices that so happen to have a phone as part of this functions, the intent of the rule and its evolution would make for an answer of NO to having something playing in your ear only.
Training is one thing, matches another. I used to shoot offhand indoor practice with a boombox at my feet blaring metal rock at me. It altered my sense of time and forced a higher degree of concentration, plus distracted me between shots. The more distracted away time and more intense concentration while in the shot process I found to be very beneficial.
DR1826- Posts : 21
Join date : 2017-11-06
Re: Using recorded range commands as an aid during a match - legal?
3.20 Ear Protection - All competitors and other personnel in
the immediate vicinity of the range complex are urged to wear
hearing protection devices. Only sound reducing devices may be
worn. Match sponsors (and or ranges) may require ear protection.
the immediate vicinity of the range complex are urged to wear
hearing protection devices. Only sound reducing devices may be
worn. Match sponsors (and or ranges) may require ear protection.
Jack H- Posts : 2693
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 75
Location : Oregon
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