Lead poisoning - My next challenge in this sport

by Chris_D Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:55 am

Yesterday I got my test results back from the doctor and I am at 59, she wants me to come back in in a couple weeks to discuss the issue and possible treatment.

I suspect the high levels are due to a lot of shooting at a local range with poor ventilation, but that is only a guess. I was shooting for about 2 hours every saturday and Sunday and would come home and blow black boogies out of my nose. I am generally good about washing my hands after shooting and after reloading which leads me to believe the source being airborne lead.

The good news is that I now belong to a private range, while still indoors, there isn't nearly as many shooters on the line during practice. I am hopeful that will be a big reduction in lead exposure.

I am also going to reconsider my brass tumbler (vibratory bowl) and consider switching to a wet rotary tumbler with stainless steel media or an ultrasonic unit. My ultrasonic unit I have isn't very good so I am leaning towards the rotary style.

I will also wash more often etc. I doubt I can wear a mask but will try, having been a smoker for many years, my lung capacity makes it very difficult to breathe with a mask on.

I guess what I would like to know, for those of you that have been through this, what can I expect to happen?

Chris

by Steve B Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:39 am

Chris,
Let me briefly tell you my experience... I've been shooting indoor (poorly ventilated range too) and outdoor bullseye for 3 years. Last November I had my level checked and found I was at 46. I've always used D-lead soap but started wearing a 3M N100 ventilator last December. In May my levels dropped to 31. My recommendation is to wear the ventilator and wash with D-lead and you'll see your #'s drop significantly.

by Larry Lang Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:02 am

I used to shoot at an indoor range that simply had exhaust fans. I also shot outdoors...once a week, both sites. My lead level was at 28. I ceased shooting indoors and after a year my lead level was "undetectable".

The indoor range has since been refitted wit a state-of-the-art ventilation system.

by SSgtG Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:44 pm

Chris, I went through this very thing several years back. First off DO NOT tell the Doc about the range. For sure this is the culprit but she/he will be required to report it to the EPA and that will be the beginning of the end for the range. For your personal safety either stop shooting in poorly ventilated ranges (not always your best choice) or start wearing a P100 rated 1/2 half mask. Buy extra filters, you will need them. Wash diligently immediately after firing. Change your clothes as soon as possible. Do not pick your nose, do not eat, do not suck your thumb etc... until after you have washed. This one Maskis what I used.

by **Rob Kovach** Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:27 pm

The bigger problem is breathing the lead particles.

I'm at 31 and my doc told me to take 2000mg of Vitamin C per day to help metabolize the lead out of my system.

Smoking after breathing lead is a big deal. If that cig tastes any different after shooting there is something going on with that. The only guy I knew that showed neurological lead symptoms was a smoker, plus he restored cars with lead body filler. Scary stuff...he was really messed up before he died.

by **Founder** Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:54 pm

Chris I will discuss this with you on Sunday after the match. Rob will be there as well, we both tested high at 31 I dropped to 21 in 3 months by changing my habits.

by Motorcycle_dan Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:48 am

Other than an increase in the tested blood level, What are the symptoms of lead poisoning?

by Larry Lang Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:07 am

From the Mayo Clinic:

Symptoms in adults
Although children are primarily at risk, lead poisoning is also dangerous for adults. Signs and symptoms in adults may include:

High blood pressure
Declines in mental functioning
Pain, numbness or tingling of the extremities
Muscular weakness
Headache
Abdominal pain
Memory loss
Mood disorders
Reduced sperm count, abnormal sperm
Miscarriage or premature birth in pregnant women

Sounds a lot like old age to me.

They didn't mention compulsive posting to BBs. Lead poisoning - My next challenge in this sport 2867566621

Lead poisoning - My next challenge in this sport 2867566621

by Motorcycle_dan Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:19 am

Yeah I don't know any shooters who don't have those symptoms. I guess the followup question would be, so what happens if it goes unchecked?

by Sgt_Gold Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:05 pm

Motorcycle-dan wrote:Yeah I don't know any shooters who don't have those symptoms. I guess the followup question would be, so what happens if it goes unchecked?

If you dig brain damage, kidney failure, and random loss of motor control then keep it up. Oh yea, keeping it up goes away too.

by **Rob Kovach** Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:00 pm

Hey Chris, sorry I forgot to talk to you about lead at the match. Did those stains come out of your shirt? Sorry again about that!

The symptom that my doc wanted me to look out for is anemia. My doc was only going to start treating me if I got symptoms of anemia or got to 80uPPM. The only thing she is having me do is take the vitamin C supplements and keep an eye on my lead levels.

I really don't think you'll start seeing those other symptoms unless you get higher than 100 for a longish period of time. I saw a chart on the internet that showed how high your lead levels would have to be before the average person would see the certain symptoms. If I find it again I'll link it to this thread.

by Chris_D Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:41 am

Hey Rob,

No worries on the shirt - I was just teasing you about that, but yes it came clean in the wash.

Regarding the lead, today I go in for another blood test - perhaps a more detailed analysis or something. Not knowing the exact cause, I have been trying to pay attention to what I do that is bad. I am pretty good about washing hands after shooting, but then realized when I was doing it wasn't really helping. For example, after I am done shooting, I carry my box and brass catcher to the bathroom - I wash my hands - then I pick up the gear and head to the car. I am sure my hands were clean when I left the bathroom but I bet they were coated with lead dust as soon as I picked up the gear again to head out the car. I suspect the gun box and brass catcher are both totally covered in lead dust (assuming there is a lot present on the firing line).

I have shot twice now at the new range I joined and neither time did I blow black crud out of my nose like I had in that past when shooting at the older range. Assuming that lead dust is in the smoke, that should also reduce my exposure levels a lot.

Chris

Rob Kovach wrote:Hey Chris, sorry I forgot to talk to you about lead at the match. Did those stains come out of your shirt? Sorry again about that!

The symptom that my doc wanted me to look out for is anemia. My doc was only going to start treating me if I got symptoms of anemia or got to 80uPPM. The only thing she is having me do is take the vitamin C supplements and keep an eye on my lead levels.

I really don't think you'll start seeing those other symptoms unless you get higher than 100 for a longish period of time. I saw a chart on the internet that showed how high your lead levels would have to be before the average person would see the certain symptoms. If I find it again I'll link it to this thread.

by Don Tunstall Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:56 pm

Chris_D wrote:Hey Rob,

No worries on the shirt - I was just teasing you about that, but yes it came clean in the wash.

Regarding the lead, today I go in for another blood test - perhaps a more detailed analysis or something. Not knowing the exact cause, I have been trying to pay attention to what I do that is bad. I am pretty good about washing hands after shooting, but then realized when I was doing it wasn't really helping. For example, after I am done shooting, I carry my box and brass catcher to the bathroom - I wash my hands - then I pick up the gear and head to the car. I am sure my hands were clean when I left the bathroom but I bet they were coated with lead dust as soon as I picked up the gear again to head out the car. I suspect the gun box and brass catcher are both totally covered in lead dust (assuming there is a lot present on the firing line).

I have shot twice now at the new range I joined and neither time did I blow black crud out of my nose like I had in that past when shooting at the older range. Assuming that lead dust is in the smoke, that should also reduce my exposure levels a lot.

Chris

I load box in car wash my hands then when I get home I unload wash my hands shower and change cloths. I had low lead level of 9 ate lots of greens and iron rich food and reduced My lead levels to 4. But I was never anywhere near your levels. but healthy diet will help flush lead.

Rob Kovach wrote:Hey Chris, sorry I forgot to talk to you about lead at the match. Did those stains come out of your shirt? Sorry again about that!

The symptom that my doc wanted me to look out for is anemia. My doc was only going to start treating me if I got symptoms of anemia or got to 80uPPM. The only thing she is having me do is take the vitamin C supplements and keep an eye on my lead levels.

I really don't think you'll start seeing those other symptoms unless you get higher than 100 for a longish period of time. I saw a chart on the internet that showed how high your lead levels would have to be before the average person would see the certain symptoms. If I find it again I'll link it to this thread.

by **Founder** Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:11 pm

I highly recommend the D-Lead products. I use their soap to wash, the wipes at the range and for my car and the pre-mixed spray to wipe down the loading bench.

Lead poisoning - My next challenge in this sport 2935285009

Lead poisoning - My next challenge in this sport 2935285009

by jakuda Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:29 pm

By the way, the original study that recommended Vitamin C on workers exposed to lead also did a test case for drinkers and non drinkers. People who drank and also supplemented with Vitamin C saw a marked decrease in the efficacy of the Vitamin C in lead scavenging. Just some food for thought.

by **Rob Kovach** Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:56 pm

Sounds ok for me. Not a drinker.

by sixftunda Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:12 am

After looking at this thread a few months ago, I got my level checked and the results came back last week at 24. My son shoots with me frequently so we are taking him in to get checked this week. I have only shot at our indoor range two or three times this summer so I am led to believe its coming mainly from reloading and sorting brass.
I am ordering the d-lead soap and some masks this week. Our indoor range league starts in a few weeks and there are one or two shooters who already wear masks there. Once the league starts I am there shooting 2-3 days per week.

by DeweyHales Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:05 pm

I got my lead levels checked, and I am at 24. So, I guess I will be taking some extra vitamin C.

by Jerry Keefer Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:58 pm

I have been heavily involved in firearms for my entire life. The last 15 years of my employement with a large Police Dept, I was in charge of its firearms program and indoor/outdoor range facilities, which required maintenance on the target systems and back stop. The indoor had 18 lanes, 25 yards, computer controlled. This range was also used by other agencies in the area, which were many..16 at one count, as I recall. The range saw many more than a million rounds per year from combined departmental use.
Empolyers are required under OSHA Law to montior employees exposure to lead. A 40 will result in a flag, and higher, may warrant removal from your work position. This range operated daily, sometimes 18 hours a day, depending on the assignment. Training qualifications, etc. I spent enormous amounts of time, daily, weekly, monthly, for 15 years , monitoring shooters, coaching, over seeing other agencies, and or working on the operating apparatus.
My blood levels were checked every 6 months. The highest level I ever attained was 19..the mean base for humans is 1.6... I never wore protection, such as a respirator or Tyvek outer wear, unless doing major work down range which would disturbed dust and setiment.
Our ventilation system was excellent. A professional hazmat control company swept and washed down the entire range every 3 months. It was swept and HyVac'ed once every month.
My practice, was to never stand on the ejection port side of the firearm, while coaching/teaching. This greatly reduced exposure to the lead mist from primer ignition.
I am a clean freak, so touching my face, nose, eyes, mouth, never became an issue.
Most indoor bullseye ranges I have been too, and that's quite a few, seriously lacked a well designed ventilation system. The airflow in and out must equalize..to be effective. Our exhaust fans started first, when the flow reach the appropriate volume, the make up fans would start. Inhalation is the most common avenue of entry into the human body. Showering every night, which I always did anyway, and washing ones hair.. Hair collects and holds airborne lead particles.. These particles transfer to the pillow, and are inhaled.
During heavy use, I would shovel up 5 gallon buckets full of unburnt gunpowder from down range. Lead dust near the backsop also generated buckets of pulverized lead dust. Spent Lead bullets are recyclable, which removes them from hazardous material list. The contaminated wash water, however, is not, and must be disposed of accordingly.
Just some info some might find interesting..
Jerry

by throttleup Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:28 pm

Chris,
Two years ago I suspected we might have a problem at our indoor range.    I got tested for lead and my number was 68.   I was not alone. 4 other members of our Bullseye league were in the 50's and 60's and two were banned from the range by their doctors for a month.   It was quite a shock.   My tests also showed some kidney and liver numbers that were also out of line. I immediately started wearing a P100 mask and change the filters every 30 days.   I wash my hands and forearms with D-lead soap, shower at home, wash my hair and immediately drop my shirt in the hamper. I also take 1000 mg vitamin C daily. In the range we tripled the ventilation with fans behind each lane and 4 exhaust fans in the roof.    No one sweeps the shooting areas without a mask on and we leave sweeping down range to the range management.

Three months later I was at 54 and 6 months after that at 34.   Unfortunately I also taught at another indoor range that was supposed to have modern ventilation.   I did not wear my mask there.   Bad move, 3 months later I was back up to 41.   Now the mask is back on at any indoor range.   Some ranges do not like that, too bad, damaged liver and kidney functions are no joke.

My next test was 19 and 3 months later, 9.    It has taken two years to get to the OSHA safe level of below 10.    I am convinced that the mask is the major reason for the continued decline.   Lead poisoning is like high blood pressure, there are no symptoms until the damage has been done.

by Axehandle Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:37 pm

61 year old life long shooter, reloader and caster here. Retired in 2012 and have worked 20-30 hours on an indoor range for the last 12 months. We are tested every 3 months. No lead issues here. Mine runs less than 10...

by ssds14534 Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:46 pm

Thanks to this thread and few others I decided to get tested. My level is 61. The VA is doing more blood tests and two 24 urine tests. Once the results are in they're going figure out a plan to reduce my level. They're talking about Chelation therapy. Sounds like none of you went through that.

I'm at an indoor range 2-3 times a week. Someone is always dry sweeping brass. Then picking it up and dumping it in a bucket. So constant cloud of lead dust from the primers I believe.

I take my brass home and toss it in the cleaner stirring up more lead dust. Never wear gloves.

So I'm making a bunch of changes.

Glad I saw this thread.

by Colt711 Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:41 pm

A number of yrs ago I was tested in the 50's @ the Cleveland Clinic. I was shooting at least once a week on the same indoor range. Soon after I was away from shooting for several mo's, too long ago to recall no of months away, but the results of testing before and after the time away was a drop in LL from the 50's to the teens.

My Doc supplied a study of lead exposure effects done on an indoor range (a state police academy) involving a class of cadets during their training. The results indicated a significant difference in the change of lead levels between members of this group. They each were assigned and used one firing position during their training. A variation in airflow and effectiveness of the system at the several positions was determined to be the cause. Since reading the study I have tried to use the position appearing to have the best air flow.

Isn't a LL of limited value unless testing was done prior to the individuals participation in the activity in question? As I understand a drop in LL is desirable but doesn't indicate damage done to the various organs? Testing of the organs is indicated and the results would determine the course of actiion. The preceding comments are not intended to lessen concern over high lead level test results.

Hope this small bit of information re: ranges may help someone.

RH

by Axehandle Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:40 am

OSHA has strict requirements for indoor ranges and watches the results of lead testing of people who work on ranges. While that should make for a safe enviornment for us to shoot in there are things we shooters do at home and on the range that complicate the issue. When we are casting, cleaning, sizing, lubing, loading, priming, depriming, sorting brass, shooting, or any of the other related activities, awareness and doing the little things to protect ourselves is the answer.

by james r chapman Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:40 pm

Axehandle wrote:OSHA has strict requirements for indoor ranges and watches the results of lead testing of people who work on ranges. While that should make for a safe enviornment for us to shoot in there are things we shooters do at home and on the range that complicate the issue. When we are casting, cleaning, sizing, lubing, loading, priming, depriming, sorting brass, shooting, or any of the other related activities, awareness and doing the little things to protect ourselves is the answer.

Unfortunately, I don't believe this is true for private gun clubs even though they are open to public use. OSHA only governs employers and work environments the rest of your statement I would agree with..

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