Pistol for training at home.

First topic message reminder :

Pardini's K10 air pistols are close to $2K and the Baikal is no longer imported:

https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/IZH_46M_Match_Air_Pistol/78

What is the smart buy for target practice at home? I can set up a 10 meter lane in the garage and any suggestions are appreciated.

About 5 years ago I made the big plunge and purchased an LP50.  It has been one of the best pistol purchases I've made. Prior to the purchase I was concerned with the possibility of reliability issues, having previously spent a fair amount of money on pistols and conversions that did not function reliably right out of the box.  Well, its five years down the road now and I have over 55K pellets through it without one failure. The only maintenance I have performed is greasing the o-rings occasionally.  There is one adapter that screws into the standard scuba fitting and I simply screw the air gun cylinders onto this, open the valve to the scuba tank, wait a few seconds until it fills, and then close the valve and take off the cylinder.  The whole process takes around 30 seconds and I typically get 100 shots or so from a cylinder. I have the heavy trigger group and it is set at 3 pounds to kind of split the difference between my wad gun and my .22. I find it to be an excellent training aid.  I make the same mistakes in timed and rapid fire with the AP as I do with the .22.  I've had a very good shooter tell me that they didn't think the LP50 would be a viable training aid.  Presumably because there is essentially no recoil. This may be true for some people, especially really good shooters who have mastered trigger control. My problems with trigger control have nothing to do with recoil, however, so for me it works out great.  Chicken finger etc. is pretty much the same regardless of the pistol.  Needless to say, it is excellent for slow fire practice. The initial cost is definitely something to consider.  I should add that I have also owned and shot an IZH46 and a Daisy 717.  I found both to be excellent training aids for slow fire.

The Steyr and its cousins South of the Brenner Pass are works of art and worth every penny somebody wants to invest in them but I myself am not there yet. When the time comes where my skill approaches the potential of  the FAS then I'll join the ranks of you guys. 

BTW, good buy on the Gehmann here:  
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gehmann-17x17cm-Pistol-Targets-Pellets-Trap-for-indoor-10-meters-shooting/332508773187?hash=item4d6b113b43:g:b1wAAOSwCmZZPrfO

I have one of the Gehmann traps for 10m air pistol targets.  A piece of drywall is a backer behind the trap.  I use duct seal on the plate that cuts down on noise and pellet bounce.  I've used several traps and the Gehmann is a class above all others I've found (Daisy, Crosman, homemade, etc.).  I recommend getting Kruger air pistol targets from www.Kruger-us-targets.com.  They are a bit more expensive, but make nice clean holes with low velocity pellets - and fit the Gehmann trap.

javaduke wrote:Relatively inexpensive (and I mean, *relatively*) is the Alfa Proj PCP gun: https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Alfa_Proj_Competition_PCP_Pistol/1564/3919

One other interesting gun that I might pick up some day is 5-shot Ataman: https://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Ataman_AP16_Regulated_Compact_Air_Pistol_Silver/4129
I'm a bit concerned about it being a .22 cal and not .177 but it may be still ok.

Those AirArms/Alfa Proj guns are pieces of shit.

crossman made a 1911 conversion air pistol kit in the 80s?

Bullseye_Stan wrote:I have one of the Gehmann traps for 10m air pistol targets.  A piece of drywall is a backer behind the trap.  I use duct seal on the plate that cuts down on noise and pellet bounce.  I've used several traps and the Gehmann is a class above all others I've found (Daisy, Crosman, homemade, etc.).  I recommend getting Kruger air pistol targets from www.Kruger-us-targets.com.  They are a bit more expensive, but make nice clean holes with low velocity pellets - and fit the Gehmann trap.

Thank you Stan. Grrreat information, I should've read your post before I spent hours searching for those targets. 
Only downside is that the trap will take 2 weeks to get to me from Canada.

I have also done the duct seal backstop and made a 3/4” PVC frame for outdoor shooting. The backstop is a square of 1/2” plywood with about 1/2” thick layer of duct seal on it. No problem stopping pellets and I can put a couple of targets side by side.

Here's an IZH 46M for $400.  Don't know the person or the item.  Just passing it along. 

http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=57001

CR10X wrote:Here's an IZH 46M for $400.  Don't know the person or the item.  Just passing it along. 

http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=57001

Thanks for posting this. I don't need it but it is a nice gun and I want it so I e-mailed the seller.

The best pellet trap is a big tub of plumbers putty. Just shoot your pellets right through the lid.

Backstop for my IZH46M, I use 5L empty wine box, with couple magazines in it, (don't real need them, the first layer of cardboard slows it enough it bounces off the back). The pellets can be dumped out. 

Staple the target to the box. It is a little noisy though.

I only skimmed most of the replies and didn't see it, but as an alternative how about an electronic trainer like SCATT, Rika, or TRACE?  You'd pay about the same amount if not less:

SCATT= $1000ish
TRACE= $600ish

You could practice with the pistol you'd use outside, 22, CF, or 45.  It's unlimited practice ammo, and you can practice inside in conditioned space anywhere you have about 10ft, no need for 10m.  Plus additional feedback of seeing your hold (or nightmare depending on the day).

Mac2 wrote:By far the worst and most expensive mistake I ever made in competitive shooting was purchasing Steyr LP50 Compact with trigger force similar to Bullseye RF.  Winters are long in the North.  A five shot repeater seemed like a great idea.  Set up a range.  Got a motor driven pump, and tank for 300 bar air.  Had a very difficult time finding adapters to go from the tank to the small tank on the pistol.  Have several adapters in series.  Was able, at last, to fill pistol's tanks.  No instructions are provided that assist one - especially in loading the LP50 C.  Finally figured out which way the lead goes into the expensive magazine.  Worked on getting the thing to work.  Think it fired once by chance.  At last I determined that I was going to throw good money and effort into a scheme that was just not close enough to my 208 or any other pistol.  Boxed it up and sent it to store with the Arc.   That said, have a spring fired pistol that is reasonably accurate and fun to shoot (German version of Beeman P1) a few times - heavy spring.
Sounds as if others here have ideas about things that may go some distance towards your goals.  Please report back.

My experience was just the opposite. I love my LP50. Bought a used scuba tank for $100. Fill adapter off Ebay for $25. Easy to use. Magazines easy to use and load. A buddy of mine has one too. We have matches in his basement all the time. YMMV.

Bill

I just got a FAS6004 about 2 weeks ago from Airguns of Arizona, really nice air pistol for the price, nicely made, good grips, decent trigger, seems to be reasonably accurate but it was advertised as having a muzzle velocity of 400fps and it clocks in (from Airguns of Arizona) at about 320fps, with the recommended 7 grain pellets.  At that velocity it tears the targets instead of punching holes in them.  I reached out to the the seller about that and they have not responded.  I do like the pistol so I think I will try the tuneup that is mentioned in target talk.

that tuneup will help the velocity up to around 370-380 usually. did on mine.. try the Kruger targets and you'll get a much cleaner hole.

messenger wrote:

Mac2 wrote:By far the worst and most expensive mistake I ever made in competitive shooting was purchasing Steyr LP50 Compact with trigger force similar to Bullseye RF.  Winters are long in the North.  A five shot repeater seemed like a great idea.  Set up a range.  Got a motor driven pump, and tank for 300 bar air.  Had a very difficult time finding adapters to go from the tank to the small tank on the pistol.  Have several adapters in series.  Was able, at last, to fill pistol's tanks.  No instructions are provided that assist one - especially in loading the LP50 C.  Finally figured out which way the lead goes into the expensive magazine.  Worked on getting the thing to work.  Think it fired once by chance.  At last I determined that I was going to throw good money and effort into a scheme that was just not close enough to my 208 or any other pistol.  Boxed it up and sent it to store with the Arc.   That said, have a spring fired pistol that is reasonably accurate and fun to shoot (German version of Beeman P1) a few times - heavy spring.
Sounds as if others here have ideas about things that may go some distance towards your goals.  Please report back.

My experience was just the opposite. I love my LP50. Bought a used scuba tank for $100. Fill adapter off Ebay for $25. Easy to use. Magazines easy to use and load. A buddy of mine has one too. We have matches in his basement all the time. YMMV.

Bill

i went to the dive shop with the tank fill valve that comes with an air pistol. The shop said you need this type on your tank, they installed, inspected and filled my tank for cheap.

I did the same thing and picked up an lp10 to practice during the winter months. I loved it. Would do a 60 round match every night. I really improved my ap scores. Went from a 530s average to a 560s average after a year of practice. Unfortunately, I found that it did not translate to bullseye. It helped my 22 scores, but it severally hurt my 45 scores. I basically developed a hard flinch from shooting the low recoil guns so much. I can't get to the range to shoot big bore much during the school year. I know it sounds stupid, but it was really hard to come back from.

Jglen thanks for the tip on the Kruger targets, I will get some of those.  As far as a pellet trap I just use a box of newspapers, instead of shooting through the cardboard into the newspaper I tipped the box on end and hang the targets off the edge and shoot into the newspaper, seems to work fine.

I drafted a long response re LP50 - but it has vanished.  Where did it go?

Jwhelan939 wrote:I did the same thing and picked up an lp10 to practice during the winter months. I loved it. Would do a 60 round match every night. I really improved my ap scores. Went from a 530s average to a 560s average after a year of practice. Unfortunately, I found that it did not translate to bullseye. It helped my 22 scores, but it severally hurt my 45 scores. I basically developed a hard flinch from shooting the low recoil guns so much. I can't get to the range to shoot big bore much during the school year. I know it sounds stupid, but it was really hard to come back from.

I don't think your experience is unique, and is certainly something to be aware of.  Air pistol is great, but it's air pistol.  Dry firing is also, along with mental imaging, physical exercises, and developing confidence in your equipment.  However, there is no substitute for firing live rounds.  Also, firing live rounds during practice is very different from shooting in a match.  But, you know, shooting airguns is fun.  

One of my goals in shooting the 45 was to develop the lowest recoil load I could that was reliable.  I came up with 3.3 grains of Bullesye under a 185 grain LSWC with an OAL sized for the chamber on the barrel; calculations (via QUICKLOAD) show 170 ft-lb of energy.  While that's certainly more than the ~ 100 ft-lb from a .22 SV, it's not bad.  But, even then I am vigilant of developing a recoil flinch.

170 ft lb from a 45? When a 30-06 in an 8 lb gun gives 20? Something is off...

I'm talking about muzzle energy, where a 30-06 rifle cartridge bullet has ~ 3000 ft-lb of energy.  That bullet energy can be translated (equated) to recoil energy when the mass of the gun is taken into consideration, but I consider my .45 and .22 pistols to have about the same weight.

Jwhelan939 wrote:I did the same thing and picked up an lp10 to practice during the winter months. I loved it. Would do a 60 round match every night. I really improved my ap scores. Went from a 530s average to a 560s average after a year of practice. Unfortunately, I found that it did not translate to bullseye. It helped my 22 scores, but it severally hurt my 45 scores. I basically developed a hard flinch from shooting the low recoil guns so much. I can't get to the range to shoot big bore much during the school year. I know it sounds stupid, but it was really hard to come back from.

Then why not shoot all three disciplines in .22lr? Many people do.

Amati wrote:

Jwhelan939 wrote:I did the same thing and picked up an lp10 to practice during the winter months. I loved it. Would do a 60 round match every night. I really improved my ap scores. Went from a 530s average to a 560s average after a year of practice. Unfortunately, I found that it did not translate to bullseye. It helped my 22 scores, but it severally hurt my 45 scores. I basically developed a hard flinch from shooting the low recoil guns so much. I can't get to the range to shoot big bore much during the school year. I know it sounds stupid, but it was really hard to come back from.

Then why not shoot all three disciplines in .22lr? Many people do.

Shooting all 3 portions of a match in 22lr is gonna put you in a totally different class and you won't be competing against the majority of shooters at a match.

LP-50