Promote Bullseye, Raise Funds

I responded in another thread and thought feedback on my idea and ideas from others in a separate thread might be interesting.

In the other thread, the growth of 3-gun, IPSC, and the like and the slowing of Bullseye participation was of course brought up. lyman1903 suggested that as the participants in these contests age they might find the pace of bullseye something that suits them and a good way to continue competing when they can no longer keep up.

So, I thought this would be a good way to increase interest:

Have a reduced Bullseye style competition alongside 3gun and IPSC events.
Run a two handed  timed fire CF stage (something they'll be more familiar with than slow fire) and a slow fire one-handed stage. Set the targets at 50ft with official targets. Follow the same equipment divisions as the main event.
This would introduce them to the targets, the precision, and one-handed competition while letting them leverage the most of what they are comfortable with. All while giving them another outlet for bragging rights for the day.
Alongside the shooting lanes, have a prominent full display of the requirements, results, and records of full Bullseye competition. Include examples of the official targets and the distances they're shot at. With the schedule of local events and contacts for local Bullseye groups.
Hand out prizes, even just bragging rights for the CF precision portion at the main event and the competitive among them are likely to make the precision portion a permanent fixture and might migrate to full bullseye competition.
And, really take advantage of people's competitive nature and raise funds. Charge a couple dollars for each set of targets fired and have a competitors best score stand for the competition. The really competitive might drop a good deal of money to try to remain on top of the standings if they see their position drop.

For the 7 yd crowd I found some 21 ft reduced bullsye targets.
Boy, did they whine!!

Jon Math wrote:I have to ask, is there a reason many of your posts are trying to change Bullseye shooting? 

The only change I'm trying for is for competitions to spread.
This post doesn't change Bullseye. It seeks to introduce the sport to others to make participation grow.
I'd like to know why so many seem to be content talking about the old days, and complaining about the current state of participation and the growth of run and gun events.
Why is your kneejerk reaction to equate this suggestion to an unwelcome change instead of a positive way to grow?

james r chapman wrote:For the 7 yd crowd I found some 21 ft reduced bullsye targets.
Boy, did they whine!!

I think the trick I'm trying to pull is that you need to introduce the idea of precision scoring to the 7 yd crowd while they're feeling safe amongst others from the the 7 yd crowd.
Make it a game amongst friends and really taking the challenge seriously doesn't look so intimidating. And instead of everyone being negative about the challenge, everyone encourages each other on.
Once they're hooked, some might rise to the different challenge of full Bullseye competition.

Introducing Bullseye to shooters from other sports is great, but you might be fooling yourself if you really think the "7 yard crowd" needs a handicap to feel "safe" shooting Bullseye. The upper level action shooters work almost as hard at precision shooting as most Bullseye shooters, they just work on speed as well.

At our club we have 3 Gun, USPSA and IDPA, and several top level shooters in each. Had one show up a while back just to shoot the centerfire match (it's all he had with him). First time on a Bullseye range, first time he'd seen a Bullseye match, no clue what was going on except which target he was supposed to shoot. Ended up shooting over 80% with a Glock (yes, slow fire was at 50 yards and yes he was shooting one-handed). Others shoot Bullseye with us now and then because they think it's kind of relaxing. They rarely end up at the bottom of the match results report.

Before anyone gets their panties in a wad - I get it, a lot of action shooters struggle with precision at anything past about 10 yards. But don't be surprised if a good action shooter shows up at a Bullseye match and holds their own against anyone there. And looking down our noses at shooters from any other shooting sport is a pretty good way to ensure they want nothing to do with Bullseye.

TexasShooter wrote:And looking down our noses at shooters from any other shooting sport is a pretty good way to ensure they want nothing to do with Bullseye.

Something I'm fighting all the time locally. Reminding the members of the precision club (which is without a home) to stop using "we're not cowboys like club X" as a reason we need a new club when approaching locations or even talking about our club.
Or when the precision club president complains in his annual report about the boredom experienced when having to listen to the state of affairs of action shooting sports at the annual meeting between the provincial police and clubs.
All it does is make enemies of people that could be allies in a number of situations and with whom we may find common interest and activity. 
Heck, I was turned off one club and IPSC because of the derision I got from IPSC shooters when looking for a .22lr pistol and they were all "what you should really shoot is at least a 9mm".
I've no doubt top IPSC and 3-gun competitors could give Bullseye shooters a run for their money. Just thought in man areas they could do with a fun introduction at one of their events to build interest and build bridges between the different sports groups.

In the words of an acquaintance who's a USPSA competitor, "I don't need or want your kind of accuracy."  I'm sure he meant well, but, I do respect their sport, however I don't think the the reciprocity is there for the most part.  Just sayin'.

I think that the “run and gun” type of shooters are interested in just that - a fast paced, action involved shooting sport. They’re not interested in “Precision”. They need Accuracy in what they do, but they’re just simply not drawn to the calm, focused discipline of precision pistol shooting in the sense of bullseye. They want to be more active - “run and gun”. I’m not saying that you don’t have to be focused for their sport - you do. In any sport you have to be focused and on the ball to reach the top but I’m just saying it’s like trying to recruit a football player for baseball. Not often will this occur. I think more success will come from recruiting new shooters that are already not heavily involved in a sport. A shooter who hasn’t already dumped a lot of money into a completely different collection of gear for a different sport entirely.

Bigtrout wrote:In the words of an acquaintance who's a USPSA competitor, "I don't need or want your kind of accuracy."

Which is fine for many of the individuals that participate in that sport. But exposing competitors to a larger selection of events is a good thing.
Don't go looking to convince and convert them all.
Equally, Bullseye competitors aren't filled with people who'd appreciate having to run from target to target. But having IPSC, PPC, and others present at Bullseye events to promote their sports would provide those bullseye shooters looking for additional or different outlets with exposure and options.

Jon Math wrote:none need to be watered down to satisfy larger audiences.

And when a current run-and-gun competitor gets too old and too slow? And they've never been introduced to Bullseye and don't know it exists? Or current young competitors who aren't fast enough? Or current competitors who want to try everything? Spectators that know little of any shooting sports?

No one is saying to water anything down. Geesh.
No more than running postals or club competitions that allow best targets over a month instead of a strict 2700. get them interested, get them hooked, get them to full competitions.

Bullseye doesn't need promoted in your end of the woods? Your firing lines are full to bursting? Great. Congratulations, the suggested idea is of no use in your area. And the National precision pistol matches are turning people away and instituting cut-scores for registrants? Wonderful! No need to promote to get information in front of people at all.

It will never cease to amaze me how negative and defensive people will get over simple suggestions for extra activities or in this case a promotional idea. I'm not even committing the sacrilege of asking why a rule is the way it is to simply try to gain perspective.

Jon Math wrote:"Have a reduced Bullseye style competition …
Run a two handed  timed fire CF stage..."

That’s from your own post and what I call watered down.

Cleaning a reduced 50 yard target at 25 yards is not the same as cleaning the correct one at 50 yards; if you think it is, or you think you can do the latter because you can do the former your just kidding yourself.  It’s akin to running a half mile in under two minutes and thinking you can double the time and claim that you’re a sub 4 minute miler.

Damn. FOR DEMONSTRATION.
For non bullseye shooters.
And by reduced competition I meant not do a 2700. Not use targets at the wrong distance.

And the rest of your post has nothing to do with the intent. You're being awfully negative and judgemental without making much of an effort to see what the intent of the exercise is.

Where do you get the idea that anyone in their right mind would use a fun competition introducing precision shooting with the wrong equipment to compare against fully run 2700 results?

But I'll "run" with your analogy. If you want to get people interested in running marathons, do you send them out on a full marathon course complaining running shorter distances doesn't let you claim to be a marathon runner?

Maybe I'm wrong but seems to me the intent of the exercise is to make it easy for non-Bullseye shooters to give Bullseye a try. Nothing wrong with that. I'm all for promoting Bullseye to anyone that will listen, and promoting Bullseye to folks that you know enjoy shooting and enjoy competition makes sense. My earlier post was more about the assumptions many Bullseye shooters make about action shooters, and how those assumptions can sabotage any hopes you have of bringing someone new to our sport. 

I don't know that a two-handed timed fire stage has much to do with Bullseye but that's ok. At our monthly matches we run a "Just for Fun" match along with the NRA match. Same SF, TF, and RF but 25 yd targets and the shooter can choose 1-handed, 2-handed, or use the bench as a rest. We've had several folks start out in that match but they all chose to shoot 1-handed. One of the reasons they're trying Bullseye is that they want the challenge.

Convincing the folks on this forum that it's a good idea is really pretty easy. Just go to your local gun club and give it a try. If it works let everyone know...

Slartybartfast wrote:I responded in another thread and thought feedback on my idea and ideas from others in a separate thread might be interesting.

In the other thread, the growth of 3-gun, IPSC, and the like and the slowing of Bullseye participation was of course brought up. lyman1903 suggested that as the participants in these contests age they might find the pace of bullseye something that suits them and a good way to continue competing when they can no longer keep up.

So, I thought this would be a good way to increase interest:

Have a reduced Bullseye style competition alongside 3gun and IPSC events.
Run a two handed  timed fire CF stage (something they'll be more familiar with than slow fire) and a slow fire one-handed stage. Set the targets at 50ft with official targets. Follow the same equipment divisions as the main event.
This would introduce them to the targets, the precision, and one-handed competition while letting them leverage the most of what they are comfortable with. All while giving them another outlet for bragging rights for the day.
Alongside the shooting lanes, have a prominent full display of the requirements, results, and records of full Bullseye competition. Include examples of the official targets and the distances they're shot at. With the schedule of local events and contacts for local Bullseye groups.
Hand out prizes, even just bragging rights for the CF precision portion at the main event and the competitive among them are likely to make the precision portion a permanent fixture and might migrate to full bullseye competition.
And, really take advantage of people's competitive nature and raise funds. Charge a couple dollars for each set of targets fired and have a competitors best score stand for the competition. The really competitive might drop a good deal of money to try to remain on top of the standings if they see their position drop.

Are you a match director? I’ve seen you post several times on how to “improve” the sport but haven’t seen you post any sponsored matches by you. Starting to think you’re just a bullseye forum troll. Rember all never feed the trolls

Have the action guys shoot for best group at 25yds.  Strong hand weak hand, 2 hands.  5 shots each.  Each on a proper 25 size black, no rings.  They are probably not going to be zeroed anyway.
Action venues may not have even 25 yds available in their shoot bays

Jack H wrote:Have the action guys shoot for best group at 25yds.  Strong hand weak hand, 2 hands.  5 shots each.  Each on a proper 25 size black, no rings.  They are probably not going to be zeroed anyway.
Action venues may not have even 25 yds available in their shoot bays

Sounds like Cmp (irons only) as issued or military/police match.

Chris Miceli wrote:

Are you a match director? I’ve seen you post several times on how to “improve” the sport but haven’t seen you post any sponsored matches by you.  Starting to think you’re just a bullseye forum troll. Rember all never feed the trolls

Well, that's incredibly welcoming.
Comment on the merit of the suggestion or ignore it. Sad that you're here to judge whether I'm worthy or not.

Guys, many clubs have multiple disciplines in the club; pistol, shotgun, high power rifle, “run and gun”.  So if the bullseye shooters set up a re-entry match run on an adjacent range, you might get some interest.  Maybe not.  But you don’t know til you try.

The shooting club I belong to is all "Run & Gun" type shooters, except for me. A few of them invited me to try out their "Combat Pistol" league. It's basically a slightly modified version of the 48 round PPC match. I went to one of the two practice nights, just to learn the chain of events, then shot the 5 week league. I won it against 15 other regular competitors. My scores averaged around 465 of a possible 480. I'm not good at all in Bullseye, but learning the basic fundamentals of Bullseye, sure helps with any type of pistol shooting. Trying to tell them they could be better at Combat Pistol if they also tried a Bullseye league falls on deaf ears. The President of this club hates Bullseye, because he's admittedly no good at it, therefore no one can shoot it. Funny thing is, a lousy Bullseye shooter such as myself, beat him in Combat Pistol.

Mike38 wrote:Trying to tell them they could be better at Combat Pistol if they also tried a Bullseye league falls on deaf ears. 

You might remind him that Brian Enos calls accuracy "The First Fundamental" of action shooting, and stresses the importance of precision shooting throughout his entire book. How about this from his book:

"If you don't like to shoot groups, then don't ever expect to be a top-level shooter - because you never will be. If you haven't mastered the fundamental of accuracy and haven't learned to do exactly what it takes to produce an accurate shot and you can't do it on demand, then you can never expect to beat whoever is at the top. I can confidently say that there isn't a top shooter who can't shoot extremely accurately".

or

"Learning to shoot accurately is the most important time you'll spend in developing yourself as a practical shooter."

And if any of these Combat Pistol wizards at your club don't know who Brian Enos is you can just point and laugh...

Mike38 wrote:...shot the 5 week league. I won it against 15 other regular competitors.

That's great. The pitch becomes-- Shoot the Bullseye league, consider it training for your Combat Pistol league.

SonOfAGun wrote:That's great. The pitch becomes-- Shoot the Bullseye league, consider it training for your Combat Pistol league.

^^Yes, this.

Pitch it as a positive. Some of what's in the last couple posts is becoming a little too negative on competitors in other disciplines. Not going to gain any friends or participants if the focus isn't being friendly and switches to laughing at them for not knowing stuff.

Mike38, seems to me you've found your competition outlet. Practice Bullseye, and compete Combat Pistol. If you keep winning at your local club at Combat Pistol, they might join you practising eventually. But obviously whether they do or not your Bullseye activities are serving you well.

Speaking of cross over between action shooting and Bullseye....
I know that Rob Leatham, "The Great One" of USPSA, has shot the President's 100 match a few times, but I don't know what his scores have been like. Does anyone here know?