Attempting to load for the S&W Model 52

First topic message reminder :

I am quoting an article by Gil Hebard on page 104 of The Pistol Shooter's Treasury.


"Many reloaders do such a poor job that their bullets are actually lobbed out of the barrel, thus many print broadside-on at 25 or 50 yards!  If your bullets are doing this, you can bet your bottom dollar that your loads won't group better than perhaps 15" at 50 yards, even out of the finest gun.  In just about every instance, this is the fault of the load, not the gun."

I did not do very well at my first target session with the S&W Model 52.  I assumed all of my issues are due to my shooting, not to the gun...  ...BUT...   I am only a novice reloader.  I thought I was doing a good job, following instructions, Magnus ##514 bullets, 148 grain, .357" diameter, over 2.8 grains of Bullseye.  I showed one of my bullets to someone at the range who told me it was fine.   I just took close-up photos.  Is there anything obvious that I'm doing wrong, based on these photos?  The second photo is a comparison over Winchester Factory ammo. Maybe I just don't know enough yet to realize what I might be doing wrong.

Larry Meyer at RCBS made me a seating die to properly seat the rounds.  There is minimal crimp - maybe I need more?  At first, I was "shaving" off lead, but adjusted the dies until that no longer happened.  Based on how little I know about reloading, and how critical it apparently is for the Model 52, maybe my accuracy problem is my own fault.  The first photo is of many rounds...     I can't see anything wrong, but.....




Two of my rounds (left) compared with two Winchester 38 Special 148 grain "Super Match" factory loads:

ruzneb wrote:...... any accuracy tests are pointless unless you are shooting from a sandbag or a rest, preferably a Ransom rest.....

I checked today, and my club (Hollywood Rifle and Pistol Club) does have a Ramsom Rest.  They don't have inserts for the Model 52 but I can get them quickly via special order from MidwayUSA.  I'll ask in the Commercial Row forum here if anyone wants to sell a set before I order from Midway.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1015269996/ransom-rest-grip-insert-s-and-w-39-52-439-539-639

mikemyers wrote:

Every time I post a target, people give me feedback, and the target next time is almost always an improvement.  It's like having the world's best shooting coach!!!!   :-). 

Come down one click and you would have had 99-5X.

I will add my 2 cents. I allow my Zero HBWC to protrude a tiny bit from the case for a COL of 1.165.  A teammate suggested this to take advantage of the lubricity of the lead for better feeding reliability. Using 2.7 grains of WST and Federal mag pistol primer. (just to keep life simple when loading 38 and 357)  I do not crimp, I only remove the bell.  I did trim my Starline brass, but have since bought new Starline brass and not trimmed it.
     I shoot Bullseye with an 8" Python Target 38 revolver. It weights 4 lbs with a mount and dot, and has remarkably soft recoil. However, I wanted to load a round that would work well in my 52-2 if I was unable to shoot the Python for any reason.
     When I had tennis elbow 2 years back, I got the 52-2 out; it weighs 3#-4 oz scoped.  I found the recoil very annoying and went back to the Python. I don't have a barrel weight.  I shoot an un-scoped Colt 1911 in 25 yard outdoor Bullseye matches with a 185 gr JHP over 4.6 grains of Solo and I find recoil is not a factor
     This thread has convinced me I should reacquaint myself with the 52.  I will take it to the range today and see what it does at 50' with the new brass.

My 52 will not function with much bullet protruding from the case. Newer Remington WC ammo has a few protruding and I have to load those as first round out of the magazine.

The new Starline brass performed flawlessly, but with only my wrists supported and caffeine in my system, the target was nothing to write home about.

Wobbley wrote:
Come down one click and you would have had 99-5X.

Hey, brilliant idea Wobbley!!!    Next time I'll just move my target up an inch when I staple it in place!   Thanx!!!!!   

pittpa wrote:.....I shoot Bullseye with an 8" Python Target 38 revolver. .......This thread has convinced me I should reacquaint myself with the 52.....

I think it would be interesting to see two targets shot the same way, one from the Python and one from the 52.

mikemyers wrote:

pittpa wrote:.....I shoot Bullseye with an 8" Python Target 38 revolver. .......This thread has convinced me I should reacquaint myself with the 52.....

I think it would be interesting to see two targets shot the same way, one from the Python and one from the 52.

Actually, for the last two weeks of our 14 week indoor season, I have been using my S&W 625-8 with good results, after having trouble breaking 270 with the Python for the previous 6 weeks.  I shot 273 both weeks with the 625.
     I am going to try it outside soon and see how it goes at 25 and 50 yards.  That is a gun I would not mind having barrel weights on.

If you don't already have it, I can post the link to where I just got my barrel weight.

Targets - if you shoot both guns, take a snapshot with your phone of the two targets to compare.  

......I also have a S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman.  I should take it with me also, and shoot two targets with the same bullets, M-52 and M-28.  


Tip - I know a way to seemingly reduce the weight of your gun by half!  Go to Walmarts, and buy a pair of their 1.5 pound Wrist Weights.  Use them for dry firing, until your arms start to go dead.  Keep at it.  When you take them off, your M-52 will feel like it's made from plastic!  Your hands will be more steady, and shooting it will be so easy!

Already have the wrist weights, haven't tried them yet.
Would like to see the link; last time I checked I thought the barrel weights were rather expensive.
We have a casual indoor shoot next Monday, maybe I can shoot both.
I hope to be outside this weekend sighting in my other guns for 50 and 25 yards.
EDIT, BTW, when I use the 625 in slow fire, I hang 2 targets so they can be more easily scored. Don't need to do that with the Python, it's just easier for to shoot over 90 in SF with the 625.  I have a teammate who shoots a big hole in the center; don't even know how they manage to get scored.
I know it is off topic, but here is a 5-round practice target I shot offhand after sighting in the 625 with my 170gr Magnus LSWC.
Oh well, photo too big. EDIt, OK  learned it.  50', Bullseye stance.

1.5 lb wrist weights? 1.5 lb? Well I suppose that could help. Or, for fun, recreation and a little extra money to spend on guns and ammo you could make 100# crab pots. I guarantee that they will make a pistol feel a lot lighter. Caution: You might get bigger hands (and arms) if you do too much of it. Pittpa, don't worry about going off subject. No one else does.

pittpa wrote:......here is a 5-round practice target I shot offhand after sighting in the 625 with my 170gr Magnus LSWC.
Oh well, photo too big.

If you want to email me the photo, I'll reduce it to an acceptable size, and send it back to you.  Send me a PM with your email address.  Images should be less than 800 pixies wide or high.  

(Yesterday the system wasn't working very well - it took 8 tries until the photo got posted, and later last night I found 8 images, one over another.  Fixed that, feeling silly for having not figured it out sooner...)


S&W M-52 Barrel Weights:
http://www.djprecision.com/product/s-w-52-products/s-w-model-52-barrel-weight

You want to add weights to your dry firing.
1) plastic shopping bag
2) 1L (2.2lb) or a 2L (4.4lb) soda bottle filled with water in the bag.
3) Hang the loop over your hand just in front of you thumb.
4) grip gun as normal

I have a "shooting" table in front of me to rest the weight on and try to raise the weight without causing ANY swing.  Usually after a couple of attempts you can do it.  Then dry fire away!

Or just raise and lower 5-10 times rest and repeat 10 times.
- Dave

dronning wrote:You want to add weights to your dry firing.
1) plastic shopping bag
2) 1L (2.2lb) or a 2L (4.4lb) soda bottle filled with water in the bag.
3) Hang the loop over your hand just in front of you thumb.
4) grip gun as normal

I have a "shooting" table in front of me to rest the weight on and try to raise the weight without causing ANY swing.  Usually after a couple of attempts you can do it.  Then dry fire away!

Or just raise and lower 5-10 times rest and repeat 10 times.
- Dave

This is so simple and such a good idea at the same time!

dronning wrote:You want to add weights to your dry firing.....

Here's how I do it - two 1.5 pound wrist weights approximates weigh of gun, just need to wrap fingers around something.  Works fine even when traveling...

I did the wrist weight thing but it was counter productive. What happened, I think, was my subconscious got accustomed to pushing a heavy weight back to center during dry firing, and as a result pushed too hard with no weight, resulting in a jerky hold.
I believe strength training should be done separately from dry firing. Strength training is a dedicated regimen including weights, grip, and wrist exercises.

While travelling, I have used 4 to 10 # weights at the gym in a bullseye stance for slow, rapid and timed fire time durations

Today was rather frustrating.  I spent most of the afternoon trying to get my seater and crimper die to work together nicely.  The alternative, for me, is to do the crimping on a second press.

Terry's Magnus bullets have a "square" corner around the top.  In order for the crimp to come "in" so it's greater than the diameter of the bullet, it either has to wrap over the bullet, or squish the lead.  Those are the only options I can see.

If the bullet is still being seated while the crimper starts to move the brass inwards, I got lead shavings.  Maybe that's where the lead came from the ended up on my barrel.  If I pushed the bullet in further, this was minimized, but from what I'm reading, the bullet should be close to the top of the brass.

I finally ended up by setting the seater die, little by little, until it was barely below the top of the brass, and then slowly adjusting (only) the crimper die, until just a little after the "belling" had been removed.  I can't see the crimp, but I can feel it.  This also seems to have eliminated the lead shavings.  

By the next century, my barrel should be clean, and I can try this idea out.  

I found a long time ago that life is better if I don't try to do too many things at once.
I never seat and crimp in the same die, there are just too many variables to juggle at once.

Steve, I know what you mean, and I agree.  In an ideal world, I would remove the Lock-Out Die, and use separate seating and crimping dies.  

In my world, unfortunately I am FAR from perfect, and so is my equipment.  RCBS replaced the parts that caused what you see below, but as far as I'm concerned sh*t happens, and all I can do is minimize the chances.  

The Lock-Out Die may never be needed.  In the past several years, it has never had to stop the press (literally).  But it's re-assuring to me to know that it's there. 

I have a feeling that the overwhelming majority of you guys are very good at all this, and have long since forgotten any &^%#$@ moments from your past.  Someone here tells us to ignore the bad, and concentrate on the good.  Not me.  I pay way too much attention to what might be "bad", to prevent it from happening, and especially to prevent it from happening twice!!



In explanation, the assembly below the shell plate in my RCBS Pro-2000 was not working properly - the various parts just didn't align correctly SOME of the time.  The tech at RCBS was trying to help me adjust things, but when when we reached the limit of what I was able to do, he sent me a new complete assembly, and I sent him back the bad one.  (This wasn't every round - the press would do 15 or 20 rounds correctly, and then OOPS!.)

I don't want a reloading press that uses a primer tube, so that left out the Dillon, and the newer RCBS.  So now that I've eliminated some of the causes of primer issues, something like this happens.

Using the Lock-Out die means that if for any reason I get a case with no powder, or double powder, this die will lock up the machine.  I don't worry any less about all the other potential problems, but this means one less potential problem.....

Before I had a progressive press with 4 holes I would go thru all the steps except crimping,  then I'd run all the rounds thru a separate crimp die in a single stage press.  On the face it may seem to take longer, but the peace of mind and lack of rework more than made up for it.  If I was in your position I would probably pick a low end single stage press and devote it to crimping.  I've found that I can usually go farther/faster by slowing down.

Steve - I have my old RCBS Big Max sitting next to my progressive press, with an RCBS taper crimp die in it for 38 Special.  I will try a comparison test, and see if there is any difference.  I plan to run 20 rounds through the Progressive, with crimping, then 20 with no crimp, which I'll do as you suggested.  

At some point I'll try this for 45 as well.

Since you have probably already done that, what was the difference, on the target, between doing it one way or the other?

(I'm already "slowing down".  I've been running one round at a time through the Progressive, and when I'm comfortable with it, I'll use it as intended.)

In my case I feel the difference was between my ears.  I know my stuff will work, that translates to confidence.  I also spend little or no time fixing errors at the loading bench and that translates to more time on the trigger.

Update...

It was suggested in this forum that instead of my RCBS expander die, which just bells the case, I get the appropriate plugs from NOE that will do the belling, but more importantly, expand the case to a "looser fit" for the upper end of the bullet, and a "tighter" fit for the bottom of the bullet where it is gripped by the case.  I had a discussion with Al Nelson at NOE, who showed me how to select the appropriate plugs, to fit my Magnus bullets.

For starters, I need to get a Lee Universal Case Expander, that these plugs will go inside of.

For my Magnus #801 45 ACP bullets, .452 diameter 
I need to get the "453 449" plug.

For my Magnus #514   bullets, .357 diameter, 
I need to get the "358 354" plug.


I now agree with everyone here that seating and crimping should be done in separate stations.  Redding has "competition seater dies" with an adjuster on top:
45:      part #55189
38:      part #55282

I really do not want to eliminate my Lock-Out die.  It has never caught a problem yet, but it's re-assuring to know that it is checking.  My solution is to leave that in place, and the last die on my progressive press will be seating.  All rounds will then be crimped in my manual RCBS Big Max press, as I check them before placing them in the ammo box.


All this makes sense to me now, but I've never see a "Lee Universal Case Expander" - need to find it, and figure out how the plugs work in it.  Is this what you guys use, or is there a better way to use the plugs?

mikemyers wrote:Update...

It was suggested in this forum that instead of my RCBS expander die, which just bells the case, I get the appropriate plugs from NOE that will do the belling, but more importantly, expand the case to a "looser fit" for the upper end of the bullet, and a "tighter" fit for the bottom of the bullet where it is gripped by the case.  I had a discussion with Al Nelson at NOE, who showed me how to select the appropriate plugs, to fit my Magnus bullets.

For starters, I need to get a Lee Universal Case Expander, that these plugs will go inside of.

For my Magnus #801 45 ACP bullets, .452 diameter 
I need to get the "453 449" plug.

For my Magnus #514   bullets, .357 diameter, 
I need to get the "358 354" plug.


I now agree with everyone here that seating and crimping should be done in separate stations.  Redding has "competition seater dies" with an adjuster on top:
45:      part #55189
38:      part #55282

I really do not want to eliminate my Lock-Out die.  It has never caught a problem yet, but it's re-assuring to know that it is checking.  My solution is to leave that in place, and the last die on my progressive press will be seating.  All rounds will then be crimped in my manual RCBS Big Max press, as I check them before placing them in the ammo box.


All this makes sense to me now, but I've never see a "Lee Universal Case Expander" - need to find it, and figure out how the plugs work in it.  Is this what you guys use, or is there a better way to use the plugs?

I think you need a Dillon 650 or 1050 for all the extra slots for dies. 1050 having the most.