Lube thoughts from Jerry

First topic message reminder :

Back in 2016 I had run out of the oil that the previous owner and I used for my wad gun. I posted here, asked questions to different people and finally spoke with Jerry Keefer about it. 

What he told me led me to Marvel Custom Oil, aka. Marvel Machinegun Oil, aka MFR7 gun oil. But he also included the following note in an email when I asked how much oil I should use. I bought the last 3 bottles of Marvel Custom Oil in 2016. They ran out two weeks ago. 

"Andy Moody, who is one hell of a Marine shooter, and mentor to Zins was asked about oiling at a Zins Clinic.
He stated," I keep adding oil until it's dripping on the bench..""


Good advice, I think.

Mike,

Actually, ProGold never charged my card but an optics (glasses) company, also located in Atlanta GA, fraudulently charged my card for some glasses the same day or the day after.  I notified my credit card company, got the charge removed and cancelled that card.  Whether ProGold's site is still hacked is unknown.  But, I never heard from ProGold about the order.  It was all very unusual and uncomfortable.  However, their product (MFR7) is fine.

Stan

I have to weigh in since no one else has:

Don't take your bushing out and replace it as they describe in the previous videos.  An accurized 1911 has tension on the bushing/muzzle interface during lockup.  The barrel should be out enough that the barrel has free play.  For that reason, I remove the slide first, then the spring/guide rod and finally, after moving the barrel forward, I manipulate the bushing to remove the spring plug and barrel.

In a more detailed explanation, my preference is to grasp the grip with my right hand and grasp the slide/scope with my left hand in such a manner that my left thumb can pull on the front of the trigger guard to aid in bringing the slide stop notch into alignment with the catch part of the slide stop.  While in alignment, I hold the slide and frame with my left hand as described and use my right index finger to push on the slide stop pin end, and then pull it out of the frame with my right thumb and index finger.  After removing the slide stop, I regrasp the frame with my right hand and allow the slide forward, while moving my left thumb down to the dust cover and then to the recoil spring as the slide moves further forward.  Remember to hang onto the spring and rod until you have set the frame down and can control them with your right hand.  Also note that by using the above procedure the spring is not aimed at your face as in the video.  However, you should still be wearing safety glasses.

Another thing to note is that I have found with my guns that is it easier to remove the thumb safety when the hammer is in full cock position, so I remove and replace the thumb safety with the main spring housing in place and the hammer in full cock.

The long swinging part attached to the hammer is the strut.  The spur is the part you can use to cock the hammer.  (A minor misspeak, but I try to be thorough.)

On an accurized 1911, it is quite possible the hammer and sear pins will be tight.

The little piece inside the magazine catch is not a screw, even though it looks like a screw head.  It is a lock and only turns about 90 degrees.  It will only turn to the release point with the catch depressed a certain amount.  Do not force it.  It will move easily when the catch is depressed the right amount.  After you get it out, you can more fully understand its workings.

Do pay attention to the plunger part of the video.  Many of the 1911s have no kink in the plunger spring and it will leave the area when you remove the thumb safety.  If it does "leave the area" make sure you find all three parts (safety plunger, spring, slide stop plunger) before you reassemble it.

If anyone has corrections to suggest, please jump in.  (It is quite possible I have also misspoken.)  All comments welcome...

Removing the thumb safety inside a one gallon zip lock keeps parts from getting away,

I remember reading on a different forum that Mr Keffer recommended using tw25 grease on the barrel of model52... am I mistaken?

10sandxs wrote:I remember reading on a different forum that Mr Keffer recommended using tw25 grease on the barrel of model52... am I mistaken?

for the barrel to bushing contact 

Good discussion.  Value added to point out that our paper punchers are not carry guns and are not lubricated as such.   I run the old NGMTU Red Oil mix on the slide and frame rails and barrel of my centerfire paper punchers.  KC says TW-25B on the  hammer, sear, disconnector and associated pins and I comply.  My 22s generally do not like red oil in cooler weather and I have been known to use a much lighter oil on them.

Axehandle wrote:......our paper punchers are not carry guns and are not lubricated as such.......

That would be a wonderful title for this thread!!!   Others would be more likely to find it in the future.

For whatever it's worth, probably not much, years ago I never even considered that.  The information I was finding might be fine for other applications, but not Precision Shooting.

There was a thread (1 yr.?) awhile back comparing various lubricants' staying power and lube effectiveness, a very good research thread.   The gist was Hoppe's No.9 oil was the best of the rest.  I do use TW-25B on pins, disco, etc., but use No. 9 on the frame lugs, slide, barrel, recoil spring and bushing copiously.  I guess I was just lucky that I've used it on my firearms since i was a kid.  That said, No. 9 yields ejection issues when the temperature is 30-40F, at which point I use Rem Oil to restore functionality.  FWIW.

Are you certain the ejection issues are the lube and not the powder. I have done a fair amount of chrono testing at temperatures to the mid 20s F. Rifle loads that were 2750fos at 70 F were 2600 at 29. With pistol loads that may be on the edge to start, a 20 degree drop in temp  can affect function. My winter loads are .2 grains heavier for the same spring.

This is worth watching if you are worried that over lubing your gun will somehow cause it to blow up:



The myth of over lubrication
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9bOT_d60LM

It won't.

You pistol is a machine, keep the slide rails lubed, keep the barrel end/bushing lubed, drop oil down the hammer so the sear is lubed. I also make sure the locking lugs are well lubed, but no one else on the firing line seems to be worried about that. I regularly observe Master Class shooters putting oil on the barrel/bushing juncture every ten rounds, that is, before we go down range to score. Another one, he pushes a brush down the barrel every ten rounds!. I think this was a two time National Bullseye Champion.

I have been told, and I believe it is good advice, that "your elbow is the drip point".  If you want reliable function and reduced metal wear on your target pistol, you keep the thing manually lubricated. This is because, pistols don't come with an oil pump or oil sump.

There are a lot of irrational fears about lubricating firearms, and I believe it all comes from the US Army. The Army is lubrophobic and has been ever since low number M1903's started blowing up on the line. The Army claimed that the structural failures of their rifles had nothing to do with receivers/bolts burnt in the forge shop, (they did not temperature gauges, temperature was judged by eyeballs!)  instead the Army blamed  blowups on greased bullets. That morphed into a wide spread irrational fear of oils and greases on weapons surfaces.  I met a number of Vietnam era Veterans who had been told to keep their pistols and rifles dry. That sort of stupidity probably got a large number of troops killed, because the last thing you want is a dry M16/AR15. You can find a lot of threads on the wisdom of keeping your AR15 wet.

Anyway, the Army is slowly learning to keep their small arms lubricated, this might be of interest:

jmdavis wrote:My winter loads are ,2 trains heavier for th same spring.

Passenger, or freight?

Freight for sure. Typing on the phone sucks.

Slamfire wrote:This is worth watching if you are worried that over lubing your gun will somehow cause it to blow up.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9bOT_d60LM

....It won't.

Just checking, would you get the same results if your gun was soaked in water?  I guess so, presumably as long as the ammo stayed dry.  

Makes me wonder though, where is all the "dirt and debris" from shooting going to go?  If the gun is soaked in oil, won't it get sort of absorbed by the oil, and act like "rubbing compound" from then on, until the contaminated oil is removed?

Lack of lubrication is bad.
Is over lubrication also bad?

mikemyers wrote:
Makes me wonder though, where is all the "dirt and debris" from shooting going to go?  If the gun is soaked in oil, won't it get sort of absorbed by the oil, and act like "rubbing compound" from then on, until the contaminated oil is removed?

Lack of lubrication is bad.
Is over lubrication also bad?

If the dirt in the oil was the same as rubbing compound, your engine in your car would be worn out in 20000 miles.

Over lubrication is only bad if there’s so much lubrication the mechanism becomes sluggish. If you put a quart too much oil in your engine, it’ll find a way to get rid of it.

Hmm, when I used to work  on motorcycle engines, and took them apart, for the most part all the internal parts were clean and wet from oil.  It was more or less a closed system, and it included filters to trap nasty stuff that got into the engine.

All the dirt and filth from shooting quickly makes most of my guns look filthy inside, and that dirt stays there "forever".  

One of my articles on lubricating says not to put too much oil near the ejector, as it will trap dirt.  The answer to that is either a "yes" or a "no".  



My take from all this is that I will be much more generous with lubricating my guns, but not over-do it in places such as the ejector area.  Too little lube is not best, but neither is too much.  

I already have some of the oil recommended earlier in my shopping cart at MidwayUSA, but it's nice to read that people also like Hoppe's.  I've been using that for over 30 years, and still am using the original can.

jmdavis wrote:Are you certain the ejection issues are the lube and not the powder. I have done a fair amount of chrono testing at temperatures to the mid 20s F. Rifle loads that were 2750fos at 70 F were 2600 at 29. With pistol loads that may be on the edge to start, a 20 degree drop in temp  can affect function. My winter loads are .2 grains heavier for the same spring.

When I observed the ejection issues on two different days in the winter 2 years ago I immediately changed the slide/barrel/bushing lube to Rem Oil and got perfect ejection with my RO9 at  approximately the same temperature.   My change in zero at colder temps is most likely due to denser air and its effect on bullet flight.  I have not chrono'd winter rounds so I'll be certain to do that next year.   Thanks for the tip.

Just checking, would you get the same results if your gun was soaked in water?  I guess so, presumably as long as the ammo stayed dry. 
.

Must be why  amphibious  landings were no longer conducted after WW2. Sea water got into the small arms of the invading troops and that is why the amphibious invasions of Peleliu , Iwo Jima, and Okinawa were such disasters for the US. The Japanese managed to keep their weapons dry and that is why they won the war.

Oh, that did not happen.
 

Makes me wonder though, where is all the "dirt and debris" from shooting going to go?  If the gun is soaked in oil, won't it get sort of absorbed by the oil, and act like "rubbing compound" from then on, until the contaminated oil is removed?

Motor oils are designed to solvate combustion by products.  It keeps the surfaces of the engine clean. Filters are there to remove the big chunks. Particles too small for paper filters will accumulate, and so do combustion chemicals which get past the rings. The chemicals break down the base oils, and of course, the particles are no good for bearing surfaces, which is why, you should drain the oil, once in a while. Large grained items such as sand will ruin any mechanism and oil will attract sand. Which is why internal combustion engines have air filters. Sand will gum up any mechanism.

Marines I talked to who were in the invasion of Iraqi, in the sandy parts of the country were having to clean their M16's three times a day,  or their M16's would not function. The Marine I was talking to had run experiments with captured AK47's. He claimed he and his buds could pour handfuls of sand  into the AK47 mechanism and the weapon would still function.  Now, just a tiny bit of sand will jam up a M16. Another friend of mine, a Navy Vietnam veteran, in basic, the weapons instructors compared the American M16 and AK47 to his company. The instructors poured sand all over the AK47 and it kept on functioning, but just a teaspoon of sand would jam up the M16. The instructors told the  sailors, that the demonstration proved  what a "precision weapon" the M16 was, and of course, being a precision weapon, it was much better it was than the AK 47.  My friend was rather shocked when I told him what that demonstration proved, was just what a POS the M16 was, and that the AK47 was a better battle rifle.  For a half century my friend thought that a dirt sensitive weapon was a good weapon.  

Lack of lubrication is bad.  Is over lubrication also bad?

I try to keep the lubrication levels down so that lube does not spot my shooting glasses. I am usually unsuccessful in this, some oil from my pistols does get on the lenses.

As for fears that lube will do something to the extractor or ejector, it will if it gums up.  Remember, nothing is perfect, nothing is permanent, and nothing is finished.  Maintenance is a constant effort, if you are a slovenly soldier your weapon will show it. Letting oil and grease oxidize, instead of being a lubricants, they will gum up your weapon. That is a good reason to clean your pistols after every match, and become familiar with your weapon to understand what needs to be oiled, and what needs to be wiped.

I regularly pull the firing pin and spring out of my M1911's and wipe them down, to remove any oil. I regularly pull out the extractor on my M1911 and clean it, and wipe bullet lube, powder residue out of the extractor channel.   I regularly blow out the firing pin and spring on my S&W M41's as I have found, oil in the firing pin channel will cause a weak strike on the rim, which causes misfires and stove pipe jams. I also clean under the extractor hook of both weapons, as residue accumulates there. I want my pistols to function, and I want them to last. I am not going to drag them through a sand box, or put them in a shake and bake bag and try to coat the surfaces with abrasives. I don't know what type of Bullseye Match requires the competitors to crawl under barbed wire and get their weapons dirty. Not the sort of Bullseye matches I go to.

If you plan to shoot in -40 ˚F you are better off removing all lubricant from your weapons as oils and greases either sludge up, or freeze, in those conditions.  I wonder how many Bullseye Matches are conducted in -40 ˚F?  I have been told by guys who have been in that weather, that all you are trying to do at those temperatures, is survive.

That was very informative and enjoyable to read.  Thank you for posting!!!!

Incredible, what you wrote about the M-16.  That nothing was done about it, even more incredible.  I never knew any of that!

More good discussion...  I like the AR/AK introduction to the thread.  That AK is a wonderful low maintenance battlefield device.  Drags up more of the understanding that our paper punchers are simply that.   The AR you take to a 600 rifle match is not the AR you take to war.  How many AKs of any sort do you see at a match requiring a significant level of accuracy?  The AK is a wonderful simple and nasty tool...  Well suited for its intended purpose. 

Back to our paper punching pistols...   I really like the "..a brush down the barrel every 10 rounds..."        FWIW I can tell you that I personally heard the ALL National Guard OIC say that based on extensive testing by the NGMTU there was a measurable accuracy difference at 50 yards if the barrel was brushed every 10 rounds.. We'd wrap a cleaning patch around a bronze brush, wet it with bore cleaner and run it  down the bore every 10 rounds during slow fore.  On general lubrication we know the standard parts to oil.   We each learn what it takes to make our personal guns run best.

Bullseye_Stan wrote:Having some guidance on where to lubricate the 1911 is also useful (http://www.bullseyepistol.com/oiling.htm):

+1

Bullseye_Stan wrote:I've used this guys video on disassembly of the 1911 using no tools: 



I generally use a pin punch to remove the main spring housing pin and a bushing wrench, but everything else can be removed/reassembled using the information in this video.  YMMV, of course.

+1

Ed Hall wrote:I have to weigh in since no one else has:

Don't take your bushing out and replace it as they describe in the previous videos.  An accurized 1911 has tension on the bushing/muzzle interface during lockup.  The barrel should be out enough that the barrel has free play.  For that reason, I remove the slide first, then the spring/guide rod and finally, after moving the barrel forward, I manipulate the bushing to remove the spring plug and barrel.

In a more detailed explanation, my preference is to grasp the grip with my right hand and grasp the slide/scope with my left hand in such a manner that my left thumb can pull on the front of the trigger guard to aid in bringing the slide stop notch into alignment with the catch part of the slide stop.  While in alignment, I hold the slide and frame with my left hand as described and use my right index finger to push on the slide stop pin end, and then pull it out of the frame with my right thumb and index finger.  After removing the slide stop, I regrasp the frame with my right hand and allow the slide forward, while moving my left thumb down to the dust cover and then to the recoil spring as the slide moves further forward.  Remember to hang onto the spring and rod until you have set the frame down and can control them with your right hand.  Also note that by using the above procedure the spring is not aimed at your face as in the video.  However, you should still be wearing safety glasses.

Another thing to note is that I have found with my guns that is it easier to remove the thumb safety when the hammer is in full cock position, so I remove and replace the thumb safety with the main spring housing in place and the hammer in full cock.

The long swinging part attached to the hammer is the strut.  The spur is the part you can use to cock the hammer.  (A minor misspeak, but I try to be thorough.)

On an accurized 1911, it is quite possible the hammer and sear pins will be tight.

The little piece inside the magazine catch is not a screw, even though it looks like a screw head.  It is a lock and only turns about 90 degrees.  It will only turn to the release point with the catch depressed a certain amount.  Do not force it.  It will move easily when the catch is depressed the right amount.  After you get it out, you can more fully understand its workings.

Do pay attention to the plunger part of the video.  Many of the 1911s have no kink in the plunger spring and it will leave the area when you remove the thumb safety.  If it does "leave the area" make sure you find all three parts (safety plunger, spring, slide stop plunger) before you reassemble it.

If anyone has corrections to suggest, please jump in.  (It is quite possible I have also misspoken.)  All comments welcome...

+1