Confused! Why a Marvel Conversion over a 22 lets say Model 41!

Are the Marvels more accurate then a Model 41? I shoot a Ruger Model II and beat 41,s Hamerllis, High Standard's but I love my Les Baer 45 Bullseye gun, so if the Marvels are better I need to know, any information would be helpful!

They are probably not more accurate than another gun.

They give you the same feel of you .45 for hold and the same trigger mechanism. So consistency.

22 accuracy is not much of a issue as most any decent make will shoot 1'' or less at 50 yards with the right ammo. a marvel just gives you two things a ruger or the others dont, ability to use it on the lower of your 45 or build a lower for it and either way you dont have something that is similar to the feel of the 1911 you have a actual 1911. Some think this is great some had rather shoot other 22's, but as to beating this or that, the only thing that dictates that is the ability of the shooter.

Are the Marvels more accurate then a Model 41? I shoot a Ruger Model II and beat 41,s Hamerllis, High Standard's

Generally speaking, the Marvel barrels are superior to the 41 factory barrels and produce better accuracy. 41 factory barrels are nothing to get excited about..The 41 platform is excellent for bullseye. Ruger has one of the most "non match" barrels in production. The 22 cartridge itself is very forgiving, and can look good out of most any barrel. But, for those winning groups approaching .500 it takes a good barrel, good ammo, and good smithing..The old High Standard barrels were the only production, made in the USA, 22 match grade barrel/chamber.
Jerry

The two best 50yd groups I ever Ransom tested are from a 7" 41 barrel from Gil Hebard, and a stock MkII bull barrel. 1/2"-5/8" groups from both.. Once with the Ruger and twice with the 41. The 41 barrel had been shortened and crowned at 5 5/8". Ruger with Eley Sport and the 41 with 900B. That same 41 barrel/ammo combination also did one time a great 5 shot 1/2" group armrested when I did the sighting and trigger just right.

These groups were 10 shots each except the 5 shot mentioned. However most of my tests below were at least 25 shots. If you take the best 5 or 10 consecutive within the large number results are usually smaller than the overall. If I hit upon a first 10 shots in say 1", and continued to 25-30 shots, the full group was always about 1 1/2" even from the so-called best barrel.

The 2 worst groups ever were from another 41 barrel, heavy 5.5" that keyholed at 50ft. The other was an Advantage Arms 6" barrel that shot Green Tag at 4-5" (50yds). All other ammos in the AA barrel were what I call normal.

Normally, all 22 barrels will shoot top ammo 3/4"-1 1/4". I do not measure to the .01 any more as I believe it is a waste of my time to seek the last .1" out of the Ransom. I have tested many many HS barrels and they are by far the most consistent. The best HS was about 3/4". But most HS barrels are about 1" with Eley type ammo and 1 1/2" with mid priced ammo and 2" with cheap ammo.

The average barrel regardless of brand will shoot the same as the HS above. There is always the exception. You can have a totally bad barrel or the exceptionally fine barrel. Plus there is the mysterious barrel/ammo combination that is exceptionally bad or good. I believe the exceptions can be found with arm resting and careful triggering.

The test groups that came with 3 MP conversions and 3 Bob Marvel AA barrels I could never duplicate. All those barrels are average right in with the HS.

leoscag wrote:Are the Marvels more accurate then a Model 41? I shoot a Ruger Model II and beat 41,s Hamerllis, High Standard's but I love my Les Baer 45 Bullseye gun, so if the M

Hi Leo, You are NOT beating the other pistols; you are beating the pistol's

shooters. At this point, most 22 rimfire pistols are capable of X-ring accuracy

at 50 yards, and I'm including stock Buckmarks and Ruger MK's. I think this may

not seem like a great time economicaly, but it really is a great time to jump into

Bullseye shooting in the Rimfire class. Master your MK II, you don't really need

to upgrade to another rimfire until you earn Master qualification. Until then, Good luck;

Tony

Tony,

I like what you say, but if you were me and you decided to do the upgrade now, what would be your choice and why? Thanks,

Leo

I'm not Tony but thought I would respond. I started with a Mark II, moved to the 41 and now shoot the Marvel the last 2 years. I like having the same feel between the 22 and 45 and nearly identical trigger travel and weight. I've gained a lot of consistency, IMO, because of identical frames.

Another reason is they aren't making S&W 41's anymore, and High Standards aren't made like they used to be, yet marvel is making their conversions everyday, with accuracy that is at least as good (my marvel shoots tighter groups than my High Standard) for less money than a Hammerli, Pardini, etc. or something even fancier. There is still nothing wrong with shooting a ruger 22/45 for your .22. It's the big gun that will get you into the next class anyway.
The .22 stage is just a warmup for CF and .45.

I can tell you the Model 41 ain't what it used to be. The design is as sound as always, but the materials are not. I have four of them, but the one I shoot is a late sixties model with a 7" barrel cut down to 6" and with a GREAT trigger job. The latest in my collection, my dad's from 1999, is nothing like it -- the barrel is clearly made of softer metal and it doesn't group nearly very well.
However, the accuracy and "nouveau popularity" of the Marvel is undeniable, heck I have one that I play with - and it shoots TIGHT groups. But aluminum is aluminum, and a firearm made of it will NOT last forever.
Just sayin'

leoscag wrote:Are the Marvels more accurate then a Model 41? I shoot a Ruger Model II and beat 41,s Hamerllis, High Standard's but I love my Les Baer 45 Bullseye gun, so if the Marvels are better I need to know, any information would be helpful!

Another point on accuracy different from rest testing, is the accuracy realized because of fit and other preferences in your hand.

leoscag wrote:Tony,

I like what you say, but if you were me and you decided to do the upgrade now, what would be your choice and why? Thanks,

Leo

Hi Leo, you're right; I'm not you. I have a different experience and I would never shoot a 22 conversion. Most of my shooting

for the last 6 years has been ISSF events(Free pistol and air pistol). I jumped back into Bullseye shooting last December,

shooting 45 and rimfire class(mostly rimfire). I also shoot open sights only to remain consistent with ISSF rules. I shot

Bullseye starting in 1973 and continued for about 15 years. Back then I used my Gold Cup and a borrowed S&W mod 41.

Now I've still got the GC and I shoot a Morini CM22 RF Alu. I also aquired a HS Trophy a few months ago, which is accurate,

very reliable and has a superior trigger and rear sight compared to the contemporary Ruger mk's and a mod 41 I tried. One

of my sons will start using the Trophy instead of a borrowed mkII, at next month's match.

So, what all this B/S means; is go ahead and buy what you really want.....But my prior biased advise still holds.

Tony

it would be interesting to know what the barrel dimensions are of the ones that shoot the best. By this I mean the actual land and groove diameters. That would mean slugging the barrel I think.

Fred T

The 41 barrel that keyholed was a 1977-78ish 5.5". Worst was CCI SV it keyholed at 50ft. Aguila and some others keyholled and tipped less but were all over the target. Real Eley did not keyhole even at 50yd, but was all over the target, usually tipped a lot. I slugged the barrel and, crowned the barrel , polished the bore. There was no obvious physical evidence. Even Roddy could not point to a defect. Nothing helped except a reline.

Why do all that farting around with slugging or relining a 41? There are so many other choices!

The Marvel will stand up in competition to any of them.

HERE'S MY LIST OF .22'S FIRST TO LAST.
HS VICTOR - NEVER GOT THROUGH A COMPLETE MATCH WITH OUT A ALIBI. -GONE
HAMMERLI 280 - SHOT WELL BUT HATED THE EUROPEAN FORWARD RAKE -GONE
HAMMERLI 208 - I SHOT 1 GREAT MATCH WITH IT AND THAN THE SAME AS THE 280- GONE
MARVEL 5" ON ROCK RIVER LOWER. WORKS GREAT. ONLY MALFUNCTION IN A MATCH IS WHEN I DROPPED A MAG TO THE GROUND ON THE FEED LIPS AND I STILL TRIED TO USE IT. SILLY ME. STILL HAVE IT AND USE IT AS MY INDOOR GUN
HAMMERLI 208 AGAIN, AN EX FRIEND HAD IT AND WANTED MY SAMS BUILT BERETTA. SO I TRADED HIM FOR IT. KEPT IT ABOUT A YEAR. I TRADED IT.
MARVEL 6" ON ANOTHER ROCK RIVER LOWER. LOVE THIS GUN , MY OUTDOOR GUN.

I NEVER DID LIKE THE 41 MUCH, OH I DID HAVE ANOTHER EUROPEAN GUN FOR 2 MONTHS AND SOLD IT OFF. FORWARD RAKE AGAIN WAS NOT FOR ME.
PERSONALLY I LOVE THE MARVELS. AND I HAVE NO INTEREST IN GETTING ANOTHER .22 FOR MATCHES.

AS FAR AS ACCURACY THE 5" HAS A .38" TEST TARGET. FROM MY PERSONAL RANSOM REST AND 4 DIFFERENT AMMO I GOT 10SHOT GROUPS AT .5-.6 ALL DAY LONG
THE 6" HAS A .3 TEST TARGET AND WITH THE SAME 4 AMMO'S I GOT .5 OR A RED HAIR SMALLER OR LARGER.

AMMO USED
SIGNUM, ELEY EPS, RWS TARGET(OLD), 10X
I PERSONALLY SHOOT SIGNUM AT 50 YDS AND CMP CASE STUFF AT THE SHORT LINE.
THE CMP CASE AMMO IS JUST FINE ALSO. BETWEEN .75-1" AT 50YDS IN BOTH GUNS
JP
P.S. I LOVE TESTING AMMO AND GUNS MORE THAN I LIKE TO TRAIN.

Fred T wrote:it would be interesting to know what the barrel dimensions are of the ones that shoot the best. By this I mean the actual land and groove diameters. That would mean slugging the barrel I think.

Fred T

Years ago, I became obsessed with .22 accuracy. Floyd Aikman and Bill Chaffee caused it.. Anyway, I dissected, cut apart, and inspected 41, Ruger, HS barrels..There is a considerable difference between the three. The 41 is an average factory barrel. The chamber is too deep, too big, and the bore is usually close to, if not .214 .... Too tight. .216/.217 is optimal. There is a mistaken mythical belief, that a tight bore shoots better.. The much beloved Ruger barrel is terrible. It looks like a caveman with a stone ax carved out something that might be mistaken for a chamber. The HS has a beautiful chamber and barrel for a factory pistol. The early Karts had great shooting barrels, with the micro groove bores. All my testing shows the 8 and 12 groove bores shoot far better than any tight 41. This is an anomaly. Technically, the less you disrupt the projectile, the more accurate it is. The multi groove bores disturb the surface of the projectile, more than, say a 3 groove. But the proof is in the testing.. The Marvels shine with the 8 groove barrels. The 41 has very wide lands.. plus the tight bore, not a good combination for super accuracy. It's the ratio, of land surface/groove surface which has a definate contribution to accuracy. Narrow land barrels, even in the 45 shoot better groups. 90% of all 22s have accuracy that most shooters are willing to accept. The 22 in and of itself is an inherently accurate projectile. When everything is just right, it is amazingly accurate. Depends on what you are willing to settle for. 22 Ammo, now that's another story..

Jerry