INCREASED CHARGE FOR .38 WITH DOT

Im curious what others have experienced when putting a dot on a 38 wadcutter 1911. Currently using 2.7 WST without the dot. I'm assuming I'll have to go up? 7 Lb recoils spring and 100% reliable without dot.

If you put a frame mount on it, you won't have to change your load.

At 2.7 WST, you’re close to the maximum now.  You’d probably have to change powders.  Bullseye would be about the same.  Might have to go to the Green Dot class of powders or even as slow as 231.  Try 2.8 WST or Bullseye first.  This of course depends on the dot you have.

LenV has a dot on his 52 and maybe he can shed some further light.

You didn't say if you are shooting HBWC or not.  You DO NOT want to go too hot of a load with a HBWC because there is a risk of the base separating and you may not even know it, which is probably the #1 reason people are looking for barrel replacements for the 52.
- Dave

I shoot 2.8gr BE under Remington 148gr out of M52-2 equipped with Ultradot.  Same works fine and very accurate in second M52-2 without dot and Colt MIII Midrange.
AP

He is asking about a 1911 chambered in 38 spcl.  NOT a 52-2

I had a Giles 38 Spec 1911 and 2.8 of bullseye cycled it flawless, with 2.7 I  had some issues with cycling. The dot was a Aimpoint 3000, slide mount.
Tom Ginovsky

Dave,
Please correct me if I'm wrong, as this is more conceptual than the answer to particular question in this thread.  With that.... I believe, that powder charges of the same powder using same weight/type or just same weight projectiles in similar cartridges (i.e. 38 Special - 38 SWC - 357M, or 9mm/38S) would be close to identical.  Very minor adjustments in charge weight needed to accommodate the difference in pressure developed based on particular cartridge dimensions, and a little bit more based on type of projectile (i.e. SWC versus Full WC, but both of the same material i.e. lead or plated).  I believe, that such difference is about a tenth.  So given same platform is used (i.e. 1911 - i.e. MIII Midrange or Giles 38 Special), with close specs (recoil / main spring), then data from one can be adopted for another.  Right?  Tom G's post seam confirms such.
AP

Multiracer wrote:He is asking about a 1911 chambered in 38 spcl.  NOT a 52-2

It was a caution on using HBWCs with too much powder, in other words go slow.  1911s chambered in 38 Special use WC loads, some use DEWC with good results.  Same issue can happen with ANY gun revolver or semi-auto when using a HBWC.  I just brought up the 52 because I know of at least 4 barrels that have been bulged due to the base of a HBWC separating and then being hit by the next round.  Sometimes the shooter doesn't even notice it but it still will bulge the barrel slightly.
- Dave

This is from my experience with a S&W 52-2 with a slide mounted 1" UD shooting HBWC loads . 2.9 WST is as hot as I'd shoot , Bullseye I wouldn't exceed that either . 3.2 W231 gave me best accuracy / function , close second was 3.6 VVn-340 . All with either Rem or Zero 148 HBWC , 7lb recoil spring . Perhaps a lighter mainspring & / or increased radius on FPS , but I'd get advise from Jon E. or KC before I went that route . IIRC some of the Colts had hollowed out firing pin blocks in the slides like the early NM / GC's .

Guess I'll jump in on this.  I have a Clark Heavy Slide .38 Special with the full length Bo-Mar tuner rib (5 inch barrel).  It works just fine with 2.7 BE, a 7 pound recoil spring and either Remington or Hornady HBWC's.  If I go any hotter, the group opens up and I get leading.

I weighed a similar Bo-Mar rib and it came out to be the same weight as Marvel's dot rib for the 1911, which means, if I mounted the Marvel rib and a dot, the slide and dot would weigh a significant amount more than it does with just the Bo-Mar rib.

The only way I could get the mount and dot to work, would be to increase the powder charge since a 7 pound spring is about as light has you can go, and that would lead to less accuracy and leading in the barrel.

So bottom line, I left it alone, since I can still shoot Expert scores with it and I saw no reason to screw up a shooter.

Also, the original poster said he is using 2.7 WST.  2.7 WST and 2.7 BE are not the same thing, so please do not misinterpret what I said above about bullets and powder charges for my particular pistol.

Yes hollow base wadcutters. I have Zero, Star, and Remington. The gun in question is suspected to be an MTU conversion as it has a 6" S&W barrel that I'm told was used for them. Whoever built it built it right, radiused hammer face, hand stippled front strap, set screw for the set screw in the trigger(I've heard that was a Clark signature mod). I shot a 97 slow fire with it a few years ago indoors with irons so I'm really looking forward to how it does with a dot.

put a sams frame mount on it.

I have a couple or three  of the S&W barrels.. one 45 and two 38 spl.. one is going into a spl I'm building(been building for a while).. They were originally made for the MTU but smiths like Clark had access to them too.. the barrels were all made in 6" and then cut off from there if needed.

 several of my old clarks had the steel trigger with a set screw for the stop screw.


what you use for a dot will matter as the weight varies quite a bit

jglenn21 wrote:I have a couple or three  of the S&W barrels.. one 45 and two 38 spl.. one is going into a spl I'm building(been building for a while).. They were originally made for the MTU but smiths like Clark had access to them too.. the barrels were all made in 6" and then cut off from there if needed.

 several of my old clarks had the steel trigger with a set screw for the stop screw.


what you use for a dot will matter as the weight varies quite a bit

I have a bunch of 30mm Ultradots. better options?

the small aimpoint H1 style is light (3oz).. the base 30mm UD is 4.1 oz. the 1" UD is 3.9 oz.

you also can take some weight out of your dot rail, underneath..

start with what you have an see how it goes.  2.8 WST is not a bad option.

My several 38 1911’s will all function (5” & 6”) with Aimpoint Micro mounted to Bomar mini-rib with 2.7 gr BE and 2.8 gr WST. I have ran UD in the past with no issues, but again from the mini-rib. I have rebuilt Clark heavy slide long slides with UD mounted with 2.8 gr BE and no issues.
I’d pick the load I wanted to shoot then adjust spring to the load. 
Jon

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Hello Jon,

You're a great pistol smith.  As a photographer....not so much.  

Jim

Jon, I tried to lighten it up without blowing out all the detail.

Not a 1911, Not a 1911. But. Principle is the same. I didn't have to do anything to get this pistol to run with a rail mounted dot and 2.8gr WST 148gr HBWC. I have since switched the cheepo scope for a Sightron S30-5 and it still throws the brass into the net. More like a flip then a throw.  

spursnguns wrote:Hello Jon,

You're a great pistol smith.  As a photographer....not so much.  

Jim

Ha ha

I'm having a RRA rail put on it. probably not the lightest option. I think I see an Aimpoint in my future....

spursnguns wrote:Hello Jon,

You're a great pistol smith.  As a photographer....not so much.  

Jim