trouble with handload

Guys I'm having alot of trouble with my .38 handloads for my revolver. Ive tr'd 2 different 148gr LHBWC's and 2 powders. My loads have been 2.8 BE and 2.7 WST , The bulllets have been Magnus & Horniday . The 2.8 BE Horniday load dont give me lead fouling anywhere . But both loads do 1.5 @ 25yds with the best 4 shots and there is always a flyer which takes it too 2'' . I feel the Horniday is my best choice bullet wise . My cylinder throats are .357-.3575 and bore seems to be 3565 so I should be good there...I can handle the 1.5 @ 25 yds if it was a outside to outside diamention but this is c-t-c. and there is that pesky flyer which always seems to go high right. The gun is the Ruger GP-100 with 6'' barrel 18.75 twist. I have thought about uping the powder to like 3.0BE and 2.9 WST ...But I am starting to ? my loading. I size , prime ,flare & powder , seat bullet flush with jsut enuff crimp to straighten the flare. I use lee 3 die set . I wonder if I am deforming the bullet while seating ? I have spoken to a smith with the intention of him looking at the throats and such but would like to get acceptable accuracy 1-1.25 @ 25yds with just lods if possible....I have seen this same gun shoot in that range with Remington Factory 148 LHBWC before , A guy at the range gave me 15rds and I fired 3 groups with them the pesky flyer was still there but the groups where 1-1.25 ...would a crimp help? any ideas would be helpful.......I'm almost at the point of just selling the gun but like having the wheel gun in my toy box....and 25yd accuracy is all I really require.....but 1.5-2.0'' just aint gonna cut it for me

Hi Paperpuncher;



I have said this in your other post but I found that 2.7 of BE gave me better accuracy that 2.8. I also found that accuracy was okay when I used the Lee FCD that I thought I needed when shooting in my S&W 52 which I don't shoot anymore. I started using a Lee Taper Crimp die instead of the FCD and found my accuracy at 50 yards improved something in the order of about 2 inches smaller than with the FCD when using my S&W Model 14-3. These were shot from a rest with the S&W Model 14 and while anything is possible I fired enough of these reloads to know that at least for me and my Mod 14 the 2.7 of BE and a very slight taper crimp is far more accurate that 2.8 of BE and a moderate crimp. I too would get fliers with the 2.8 of BE. Don't know if it was the crimp or the powder weight that tightened things up for me. For the record this was with Remington 148 grain HBWC



Virgil

Virgil,

2.8 BE is what my dump lets me throw...I cant get down to 2.7 . As far as my crimp , I'm really not using one at all. All I do is to remove the flare created by the powder thru flaring die. I'm just wondering if I'm squeezeing the base of the bullet when I seat it. Like I said I believe the gun is good as Ive seen it do 1'' at 25yds...but for some crazy reason my loads dont mirrior that ...I may try some DEWC's to test my " Bullet squeeze theroy " other than that I'm kinda stumped..

Here's some other ideas to try. I've done this with another S&W (Mod 28)and it helped.



I DO NOT full lenght resize with this particular S&W I own when I'm shooting HBWC's in 38 Special cases and it has seemed to help accuracy. Doing this does not the case to squeeze the base of the HBWC as much when seating them and because of the low pressure of these loads I never have any problem seating cartridges in the cylinder even after several firings. This Mod 28 being a 357 mag and I'm using 38 Special brass I also seat the HBWC's out so that there is about 1/8 inch of bullet sticking out of the case. I have tried seating the bullets out in my Mod 14 too but it didn't seem to make a difference in that gun but it might in yours.



So try these two things. No FL resizing and seating the HBWC's out so that they are starting into the cylinder throats and see if that doesn't tighten up you groups.

Also, most all Rugers single and double action revolvers (even some rifles like the #1 and #3) have bore constrictions where the barrel is screwed into the frame. Have you checked your barrel for any tightness in that area? If there is a constriction there the gun will not shoot it's best until the tightness is removed. That's easily done by fire lapping the bore and has turned many mediocer shooters into tack drivers if done properly. It's worth checking for the constriction!



Virgil

Virgil,

Looks like I need to get some new dies them...as I size and de-prime in the same step. I'll need a universal decapper and a taper crime die and I wont size the case at all....Ive got about 20 DEWC's I may load them tonight and test my bullet sqeeze theroy tommorw.......

I don't know what kind of reloading press you have but if you have a single stage press and a set of dies for 41mag,44special,44 mag or 45 L colt you could punch out the primers with those dies and the proper shell holder for the 38 special. Your not looking to resize just punch out the primers. With the larger cases of the cartridges listed above the sizing die of these will not touch the 38 case but the decapping pin will still work to punch out the primers in the 38's. Then load the same as you would if they were FL resized. Doing this you don't waste any money on a universal decapper if for some reason it doesn't improve accuracy for you and would be good enough to get at least some cases for you to try.



Virgil

You state that you have a flier even with factory rounds.

Have you tried to see if the flier is from the same chamber every time?

Your may be able to eliminate the flier just by not useing that chamber.

Dave C.

Dave & Virgil....

Yes dave I dont use that cylinder....I just got back from the range . I shot some 148 gr DEWC's loaded with 2.8 BE and seated to the crimp groove so they fall just short of the throats.....My plan was to eliminate 2 of the varibles that could have been causeing trouble...well same accuracy 1.5-1.7 .so much for my theory's ....while I was there...one of the range guys hands me some of his hand loads..158gr jacketed HP's 14.? grs of enforcer.....BOOOOOM!! ...1'' groups @ 25yds....damn it......guess this gun likes jacketed stuff and HOT to boot.......well now I have 2 choices as I see it well 3 really ..shoot nothing but Remington factory stuff or just mount a 2x scope on the thing and start playin with hot full power stuff and have a groundhog killin toy.......or the 3rd option sell it and get a 14......as the guy at the range asked me what I would take for it....as he wants it for hunting......not sure of my plan yet but I either get to use my gun for just fun or sell it and start lookin for a 14.......either way not a bad place to be in......

Have you tried the Remington HBWCs? They work quite well for me. Also, I've tried unsized cases and it didn't seem to make much difference.

well I gonna try 1 more time. Ive ordered a scope mount and will load up some Remington HBWC . Will shoot with the scope or dot on the gun just to see if there is any me factor in my troubles....But 1 thing for sure if this gun doesnt turn out to be a good lead bullet shooter I now know it will handle hot .357 mag's nicely and I can always go play shilouette with it.......

Paper-Puncher



Your accuracy problems sound very familaur to the bore constriction that I talked about earlier. Most Ruger revolvers have it and it will drive the person nuts trying to figure out why their gun wont shoot cast bullets well but shoots jacketed ones fine. The threads of the barrel are a crush fit in these guns and when the barrels are torqued down to the frame form a constriction where the barrel is screwed into the frame. Bullets are sized down in this constriction and once past it and on the way down the rest of the barrel the bullet is free to rattle around as it makes its way out. Jacketed bullets are not effected as much because the copper jacket isn't effected by the hot gasses shooting past the now undersized bullet and the copper jacket is strong enough to still grip what little rifing it's still touching. Any lead bullets once past this constriction will have lost their grip on the rifling because it's softer that copper and have hot gases blowing by the soft lead. The combination of these two leads to 2 things, leading in the forcing cone area and just past and inaccuracy with cast or lead bullets becuse the bullets are now undersized for the barrel.



The problems you are having are typical of this bore constriction and are easily fixed by firelapping the barrel. Once the firelapping is done you should have a very accurate gun not only with lead but with jacketed bullets too and any leading problems should disappear. If you Ruger is carbon steel you can get the firelapping done in as little as 20 shots, if stainless it might take as many as 50 shots.



I'll look for the articles for firelapping latter and attatch them in a link. It's not hard to do and like I said most all if not every Ruger revolver has this constriction (some of the newer S&W too). An easy fix if you do it right.



Virgil

Here's an article that talkes about Ruger single action revolvers but if you follow the same procedure it works on double action also. You may not have to do all the work listed here but it talks about firelapping better that I explained it. There are many other articles on firelapping and if you goggle firelapping you should fine enough reading material to keep you busy for the whole day. Beartooth Bullets makes a kit but if you have lapping compound and some cast bullets you can do it yourself without spending more money.



http://www.castbullet.com/misc/accrsa.htm



Virgil

Virgil,

I will consider your recommendations...I may have a tight spot , but I dont think I have all the signs you mentioned ...Once I switched back to BE the leading in the forcing cone stopped with both .358 & .357 bullets. And I have never had any leading in my barrel at all . I would get some leading just at the point the rifleing meet the forcing cone. One more point I have only shot swaged bullets in that gun so . A tight spot is a possiblity that I will investigate . Once I mount the scope or dot I'll try my wadcutters again and see if maybe its just me , but I ve shot many 1'' groups with my 1911 with open sights rested but for some reason the wheel gun escapes me.....I will read the firelapping and go from there ..the more I think about it ....maybe I should just concintrate on the .22 and the .45 and use my GP-100 as it was intended and go out and have some fun tipping over groundhogs.....

Paper-Puncher wrote:Virgil,

And I have never had any leading in my barrel at all . I would get some leading just at the point the rifleing meet the forcing cone. One more point I have only shot swaged bullets in that gun so .

And that spot where the forcing cone meets the rifling is where the constriction would be. In other words where the threads of the barrel would be and that's the exact spot you mention. Also I' sure you know this but swaged bullets are softer as a rule to cast.



I too only use my 22 and 45 for serious shooting. Using revolvers is more of a hobby and keeps things interesting. I use my revolvers for hunting so shooting Bullseye matches helps keep me sharp but when the money is on the line my semi-auto's are what's in my hand.



This is the article I have followed for firelapping and it's worked well for me.



http://www.gunblast.com/FerminGarza-Firelapping.htm





Virgil

Virgil,

The lead deposit that I had disapeared once I switched back to BE powder....not quite sure why but it did. It would seem this gun likes .357 mag loads so I think the revolver my just wind up a toy.....I have 2 -.22's one with a dot and one with open sights and my 1911 with dot for BE shooting ...then of course I have 3 carry guns....65-5 3" , G19 , 1911 . I think its time just to have a gun that I can take in the feild and bust some whistle pigs...I havent hunted in 10+ yrs but I believe next spring I'll play some....Then of course I can go shoot field pistol shilouette which is 4 different animal targets from 25-100yds ....I dont believe I'll tackle the cykinder reaming or the fire-lapping...as long as I can get some got accuracy with 158gr xtp's with a full load of H-110 .....I gonna go have some fun....in the sun....

Point well take!



A man has got to have some fun in his life.



At least I planted a seed that in the future if you ever decide to make this Ruger shoot better with lead you'll know where to look for help.



Cheers

Virgil