Having trouble with 38 hbwc?

Try unsized brass, this is a 50 yard target

What is the theory behind increased 50 yd accuracy by using unsized brass? 

No constriction of bullet, but it does need a firm crimp

Isn't the purpose of resizing to regain circularity so there is no effects from dents in the brass mouth? Those could cause constriction.
I'm guessing here, but hope to learn something.

Problem is soft hbwc swage down during seating if the shell id is too small. I was having decent precision with one make but when I switched to a new one, I had bad leading and poor performance. I noticed the fit was tight before seating and based on my 32 work decided to remove the shell/ bullet size issue

The new bullet was also softer ...big difference.

Again, isn't the sizing operation supposed to make the brass ID exactly as required so as to not swage the bullet?
Maybe that's in a perfect world?

jwax wrote:Again, isn't the sizing operation supposed to make the brass ID exactly as required so as to not swage the bullet?
Maybe that's in a perfect world?

Nope, that's the job of the expander.

Don

Loading in un-resized brass will work only if it was fired and then being used it in the same pistol over and over.  Similarly to fire-formed rifle brass.  If you have more than one pistol in 38 Special WC caliber and do not keep tight control of brass fired out of one or another - using un-sized brass would not be good idea.

Sizing operation in theory brings case dimensions to SAAMI spec for the caliber....., more or less.  That depends on tolerances and wear of the sizing die being used. 

In order to load 38 WC correctly case must be expanded to the depth equal to the length of projectile less by 1/16" - 1/32".  Depending on brass being used for reloading there might be need to use FCD.  If brass specific for loading 38 WC being used (such brass has internal tapering starting around 0.600" from the case top) there is no need to use FCD.

AP

Great- How can I select brass that is tapered specifically for WC bullets?
Is there a gauge of some diameter that could be used?
Appreciate the info!

jwax wrote:Great- How can I select brass that is tapered specifically for WC bullets?
Is there a gauge of some diameter that could be used?
Appreciate the info!

Look for brass that has a double cannelure, it is made specifically for full wadcutter bullets. Brass that is straight with no cannelure is usually too thick to load wadcutters properly.

jwax wrote:Great- How can I select brass that is tapered specifically for WC bullets?
Is there a gauge of some diameter that could be used?
Appreciate the info!

I use 0.357"+ machining plug/pin gage.  Here is link to one option - [url=https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tnpla/88935705?cid=ppc-bing-New - Measuring %26 Inspecting - pla_uskm2zrq__be_73529890243167_c_&mkwid=UsKm2ZRQ|dc&pcrid=73529890243167&product_id=88935705&msclkid=1d9f2c1b64d41824bb634cc717d3bb56&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=New - Measuring %26 Inspecting - pla&utm_term=4577129467923523&utm_content=Inspecting, Detecting %26 Testing Instruments Ad Group - Product]Class ZZ Plus Plug & Pin Gages - Plug & Pin Go/No Go Gages & Accessories - MSC Industrial Supply (mscdirect.com)[/url]

AP

cdrt wrote:

jwax wrote:Great- How can I select brass that is tapered specifically for WC bullets?
Is there a gauge of some diameter that could be used?
Appreciate the info!

Look for brass that has a double cannelure, it is made specifically for full wadcutter bullets. Brass that is straight with no cannelure is usually too thick to load wadcutters properly.

That is NOT my findings at all.

I did a survey of brass by make and some makes DO NOT have special WADCUTTER brass.  Yes

The "double cannelure" brass is also half a mil thinner (.001 larger ID). Whether it is the lower hoop strength of thinner walls or the reduced working of the brass in the sizer, I can't say but it also will not swage the soft HBWC's as much and therefore reduces leading and improves accuracy.  Now, using this brass unsized is probably going to permit bullets to fall in to the case and that's too much of a good thing.  So unsized regular brass or sized match (double cannelure) is your ticket with soft .359 slugs.  I built up my inventory by buying a couple boxes of Remington match target loads each week for quite a few months.  Those original factory firings were more precise than anything I could assemble btw.

It should be noted that not all manufacturers use a double cannelure to indicate wadcutter brass like Remington and Winchester do.   Federal puts a single cannelure just north of mid-case instead of putting the single cannelure about 1/8" below the case mouth for regular brass.   CBC puts a "c" on the left side of the headstamp and a "v" on the right side.   Not sure what that is all about.   GFL (Fiocchi) puts "Wad Cut." on their headstamp.   Hope that helps.

Don

Always found mixed (non +p ) brass would load up and hold x-ring (b27) targets. That’s 30 rounds.

Wobbley, what is the measurement "avg cyl"? I am guessing it's the length of straight case wall. I am continually amazed at your knowledge!

John, l believe the shank of a 23/64 drill bit works well if you want to sort . 
yes on the double cannelure on some brands. S&W sold good wadcutter ammo, made by Alcan. no cannelure.
 The point on unsized is the bullet needs to seat easily perhaps even as much as full depth. The other point that AP started was the shell has to fit the gun and cycle if it's for an auto. Obviously shells fired  from a smaller chamber will fit in a gun with a bigger chamber but not vice versa. It isn't bench Rest pistol. 
Good crimp is required to prevent backout and for good combustion.

This isn't a new idea, it goes way back. It is however a cheap easy test to see if a custom die or expander is needed. Many times for lead, it is.

Good luck

I have three boxes (two Winchester and one Federal) of factory 38 SP wadcutter.
They all have a single cannelure.
They came with the pistol i purchased last year.

bruce martindale wrote:Wobbley, what is the measurement "avg cyl"? I am guessing it's the length of straight case wall. I am continually amazed at your knowledge!

Thanks.  I was an engineer for 30+ years so if I don’t find info I need, I can usually design a test.

The measurements were taken using a dial type tubing wall micrometer.  The cylinder length was determined by measuring the case mouth to the frame of the micrometer then subtracting that measurement from the distance of the frame to the center of the ball anvil.  The case was advanced until the case wall increased by .001.  It should be noted that some of these cases are decades old (S&W, Peters). Note that the Remington 158 grain cases and the Remington Wadcutter were identical.  The “+P” varied a LOT more.  

This stands up to reason.  In the 1980s Winchester had 12 38 Special catalogued loads.  5 Standard pressure including 2 wadcutter loads and 3 service loads.  This requires two cases one marked “+P” the other not.  Adding a special “Wadcutter” case into this would get a TON of pushback from manufacturing.  For a host of reasons.  The cannelures are an artifact of the loading process, I strongly believe that the case cannelure that is over the bullet helps the accuracy of the factory round.

The market for match WC ammo died a long time ago, even the superb Winchester 45 swc ammo went out the window when the military dropped their purchases. Those went to lMl and even those are gone now. New hbwc is around but I don't know the quality. I have some 1960s vintage a test standards. The extra cannelure did bite into the skirt and along with crimp gave it that extra pop that we couldn't copy...

https://hessney.hibid.com/catalog/291052/07-13-21-july-ammo-and-accessories-online-auction/?cpage=2&ipp=100

Greetings,

I did test some of the "new" Remington "Wheel Gun" 148 HBWC 38 Special ammo for a friend.

It would not stay on the full face target at 50 yards!!!

Thinking I set up the barrel and equipment wrong, I tried some 1960's ammo I got from GrandPa's Army days.

Ten-X group, as usual.

Even Federal ammo has changed. Look at the new offering vs the old. The bullets appear to be the Speer bullet. Granted, the ammo did shoot Ten-Ring; but, not like the "good old stuff".

Time for a story...

A Marine shooter, that was local to us, was talking about his visits to the ammo companies when he was purchasing for the Marines. "Not all commercial ammo shoots X-ring, Dave. What do you suppose they do with the lots that do not shoot? They do not use bullet pullers."

Those that do testing, have you noticed that the ammo you gleaned from a Military shooter groups better than the stuff you bought at the local Gun Shop?

Thanks for reading, film at 11...

Cheers,

Dave

Wonder what crap bullet Remington is using now.

james r chapman wrote:Wonder what crap bullet Remington is using now.

I bought 2,000 of the old Remington HBWC's before they quit making them.

Don

PhotoEscape wrote:Loading in un-resized brass will work only if it was fired and then being used it in the same pistol over and over.  Similarly to fire-formed rifle brass.  If you have more than one pistol in 38 Special WC caliber and do not keep tight control of brass fired out of one or another - using un-sized brass would not be good idea.

Sizing operation in theory brings case dimensions to SAAMI spec for the caliber....., more or less.  That depends on tolerances and wear of the sizing die being used. 

In order to load 38 WC correctly case must be expanded to the depth equal to the length of projectile less by 1/16" - 1/32".  Depending on brass being used for reloading there might be need to use FCD.  If brass specific for loading 38 WC being used (such brass has internal tapering starting around 0.600" from the case top) there is no need to use FCD.

AP

Is there any reason the powder drop die designed for HBWC couldn't also be used for 158 SWC? I'm referring to the Lyman style PhotoEscape sells. Also, looking through my stash of 38 Spl brass , I noticed quite a bit of the nickel cases are double cannelure . I believe it's suggested to avoid nickel cases , any reason why? Finally , is it worth getting a taper crimp die if I'll be seating and crimping on separate stations with a Dillon 550? thanks , Richard