Optimum 32 S&W reloading process

I'm currently using a GSP with (as far as I know) a factory standard barrel. Fiocchi factory 100gr wadcutter ammo.

I've never reloaded this calibre previously and am now buying the tools. I've already ordered a powder funnel / expander die from Photoescape.

I prefer to deprime manually, then tumble. Then reprime manually (sitting in front of TV). So I will be feeding once fired, shiny, primed brass into the press.

I've been trying to call Lee Precision (phone off hook - don't know why) to order custom dies. Various threads recommend +2 sizing die, but, since I'm using brass that has only been shot in my gun, do I even need to resize? The expander die will prepare the case to receive the bullet (got some bumped Speers from Zane). Then bullet seat using a custom punch. Finally taper crimp to 0.325" with a custom Lee die. That should bring the case back to spec anyway, right?

Comments/suggestions please.

Sorry, forgot to mention another issue.

I was going to adopt a Lee Load Master, partly because they are the only vendor (as far as I know) offering a bullet feeder that can handle 32 wadcutters. But, when I got the press it was not up to my expectations - long story - it is being returned.

Has anyone found a reliable dropper/feeder die for 32 wadcutter bullets. I intend to use the Lee/Bully "bullet magazine" type units which mount directly on top of the die. DAA (Dillon supplier) are said to make the best droppers, so I've got those already for 38 & 45. I've experimented off the press with the 32 bullets in the 38 unit - not reliable.

I've not yet taken one of the DAA dies apart to see exactly how the detent balls are retained, but I guess that it should be possible to machine up a smaller diameter inner tube and replicate the detent ball retainer to suit the smaller bullets. Maybe another project for Photoescape??

I've got a Hornady 38 dropper die on the way and will look at their "collet" system - that may be easier to customise.

Anyone know of any other solutions.

I use a Dillon 550, with Photo Escape’s  new full length stepped PTU die. I’m currently using a Lee +2 sizing die, but not sure it’s necessary with the new PTU.  I can’t seem to find my deprime only die so haven’t verified that.

Are you planning to reload the Fiocchi brass? I found it a bit thicker, and perhaps not as consistent as Lapua, just my experience. 

 I use a Dillon extra small powder measuring die which works very well,I have no experience with other than the Dillon 550 though.

Did you search the forum? There is a lot of info here. It is a picky and detailed shell to load correctly. I seat bullets by hand and they go most of the way in. Sizing may not be necessary so compare it with sized. Expander, if used should be full length of the bullet. Dave, FC 60, may chime in since he has the most experience in getting great results. I am finding higher speed works in a gsp, 730s. Factory Fiocchi was slow 650s, and undersized.

Yes, I think that I've read most of the threads on reloading 32's. Hence I bought some of Zane's "bumped" bullets and have made a note of the favourite recipes mentioned here and there. As soon as I get set up I intend to try 1.6 and 1.7 of WST first and do some bag rested groups at 25 & 50 comparing directly with the Fiocchi factory ammo.

I have not been able to get through to Lee via phone and have sent them an email enquiry. If they have +2 sizing and crimp dies ex-stock then I will order them. If not then I will wait till I've done my initial tests.  Hopefully I can get enough "crimp" with the Dillon Bullet seating die alone. We'll see.

Greetings,

If your GSP-C is typical, the groove diameter should measure 0.3135" - 0.3140".

Selecting a 98 - 100 grain 0.314" bullet is a good starting point.

The latest Fiocchi brass has thicker walls than the old stuff they produced. They now measure 0.011" wall thickness.

Good news regarding brass marked 'GFL 32 WADCUT' is that the case walls are uniform the full length of the HBWC bullet and should not collapse the skirt when seated. Fiocchi, R-P, and Lapua are the only other ones suitable for full length wadcutters.

Bad news about Fiocchi commercial is that it varies considerably lot to lot.

To load the 0.314" bullet with little deformation, size your fired Fiocchi cases so that they measure 0.336" diameter. This should allow a 'push fit' with the bullet. The press will complete the seating to proper depth.

The factory GSP-C chambers are on the large side, so the 0.336" ammo should chamber freely.

I was unaware of the +1, +2, +3 sizing of the Lee dies. I always sent them five fired cases with instruction as to what the finished diameter should be.

Start out with 1.70 grains of Bullseye. Then verify with a chronograph the velocities are within reason, 690 FPS - 730 FPS.

Consider the RCBS or Redding powder measures with the extra small dispensing micrometers. You need the ability to dispense powder accurately. Forget 'trickling' or the electronic measures. The scales we use do not possess the accuracy. Your best bet for metering powder is to throw ten charges, weigh, and divide by ten. If you can repeat this exercise several times, you have your cadence down pat. i.e. For 1.70 grains target, ten charges should weigh 16.8 - 17.2 grains.

Taper or Roll crimp just enough to ensure positive functioning.

Establish a good method for testing your ammo. A Random Rest works okay. The sand bag method also produces repeatable results. Where possible, I mount a 7X pistol scope on the gun and aim at a white sheet of paper with a one inch square repair paster.

The barrel will foul with Lead in the throat/leade of the chamber. It is important to keep the barrel clean as accuracy falls off quickly if the fouling becomes too great.

The Walther GSP-C is a very reliable pistol, enjoy your new hobby.

Cheers,

Dave

Excellent info Dave, thanks.

My Fiocchi brass is all marked "GFL 32 WADCUT". Factory ammo OD is 0.335 (with a roll crimp of about 0.325 - but hard to measure). Once fired OD is 0.336 to 0.338. Wall thickness seems to vary 0.011 to 0.016 (but, again, hard to measure with my digital caliper). Length seems fairly uniform at about 0.911.

I've ordered a standard Lee carbide resize die just in case, but I feel that with such minor expansion from the gun and using the proper expander powder tube, I doubt that sizing is necessary.

I've ordered both a Redding taper crimp die and a Lee taper crimp die - I will experiment to see which gives best result. My new press does not arrive till Friday. Hopefully I can get it set-up smoothly and get out there testing next week. 

I've also ordered a 1" 7x pistol scope as per your suggestion. Hopefully that can drop straight on in place of my Ultradot for testing purpose. Good idea.

I intend to print some sheets with a grid of 1" squares, with one square blacked out to act as the aiming point. Staple a bunch of those up on the target board for testing purpose. Unfortunately it is nearly always windy here on the Oregon Coast - fingers crossed for some calm days next week!

Radjag, it will likely be necessary to resize, otherwise you won't have enough "neck" tension holding your bullet in place and it will be pushed further into the case during the taper crimp operation. I run the crimp at .325". With the HBWC bullets the hardest time I've had is getting the correct amount of sizing & expansion so that the bullet is held in place but I'm not swaging the skirt down by brass that's too tight. My thinking was if I spent all this time and money getting good .314" diameter swaged bullets I'm hurting myself by squeezing the bullet down smaller.

I currently have 3 sizing dies and a new Lee is in my mailbox right now. The Lee factory resizing die I bought is .328", the stock Dillon sizing die that came with my SDB is .330" and my first Lee custom sizing die is .334". The .334" sizing die at first appeared to work well with my custom expander but I had the issue where the taper crimp pushed the bullets into the case deeper by varying amounts. My new Lee die was ordered at .3325" and hope its right on the money.  David said his sizing die will pass a .332" gage pin but not a .333" so my new die should be similar to his. 

I currently have a custom full length powder through expander that is similar to the stock Dillon one but is larger at .334" to mimic my swaged bullets. I also just ordered PhotoEscape's new full length expander that fits his shroud system.

Zane, your reply was perfectly timed!
As I was reading it Lee Precision answered my tech call-back request and I spoke to their expert.

They do not follow the process of customer sending in 5 cases and stating was finished case size is required (this was mentioned somewhere on the forum by others). Lee simply require customer to state what die ring size is required.

Lee explained that their grinding process has a tolerance of -0.005 and + 0.001, we talked around the best approach and I decided to order exactly the same as you - nominal 0.3325.

Lee charge RRP for the die + a $30 grinding fee + shipping = total $65.88

Hope that it works!

You mention PhotoEscape's "shroud system". I'd not heard of that before and have ordered one of his expander powder droppers expecting it to fit straight in to a Dillon die. Have I missed something?

Sorry, -0.0005 + 0.001 grinding tolerance. So the ring should be somewhere between 0.3320" to 0.3335".

If you ordered the expander system from Photo Escape you'll be fine. His is not a 1 piece design like Dillon's. He uses a shroud that screws onto the expander then he uses a series of spacers that can be stacked as needed.

My first Lee custom sizing die shipped in only about 2 weeks, the second one took a solid 2 months. It depends on how their machinery is set up when you order.

Ok I opened the new Lee sizing die, seems like they're right on .3325" as requested. After very limited testing (as in 6 cases) I think I like it, seems to work well with my .314" expander and let's you push the bullet in about a half way before meeting substantial resistance, with the first Lee sizing die I could occasionally push the bullet in nearly all the way.

I tried to use the Dillon .330" sizing die before with the .314" expander and while it kind of worked it was a bear to get the expander back out of the case, so much so I was applying sizing wax to the outside of the expander every couple rounds and it was still so hard to get out I was in fear of damaging my SDB. With the new .3325" sizing die the resistance to pull out the expander was way less, I'm hoping to not use the sizing wax at all. One negative of the sizing wax is that it results in a bit of wax on the inside of brass mouth, I think this makes it easier for the bullet to be accidentally set back deeper during the crimp operation.

In a few days I'll report back as I get to use it more, I'm trying to catch up on Spring cleaning around the house. Also the new full length expander from Photoescape should be here Thursday so I can compare to my current custom expander. It sucks you need custom dies and custom swaged bullets to get optimal results but I guess you could say in a sort of sadistic way that it adds to the fun of loading 32 S&W. If it loaded as easy as .45acp I think we'd see a lot more people shooting it competitively.

All because the barrel o.e.m. and ammo makers didn't coordinate or follow proper design conventions ....

Ok guys I have all my new goodies (Lee .3325" sizing die and PE full length custom expander) and have had a couple hours of tinkering. Here's a collection of my notes/thoughts over the past few months trying to develop ammo for my new-to-me GSP with the standard "generous" sized bore that likes fatter bullets, also bought a used David Wilson .308" bore 1:12 twist 5" barrel. I've been emailing several guys on the board including David Wilson and a couple of guys newer to .32 loading like me. 

Brass: Once fired Lapua .32 S&W long, deprimed and SS pin tumbled. 

Bullets: Home swaged bullets using Larry Blackmon swaging setup, it converts/bumps stock Speer Plinkers into H&N clones. Finished bullets are .314" and very smooth on the sides unlike the more rough texture of the stock Speer Plinkers. These size bullets are preferred as they fit the Euro bores better however its very inconvenient to load for as all stock dies are configured for smaller bullets typically used in smaller vintage revolvers. These are the bullets I've been selling in Commercial Row.

Press: Dillon SDB, came ready for .32 S&W

Sizing Dies Tested:
-Stock Dillon SDB die .330"
-Standard Lee die .328"
-First Custom Lee die .334"
-Second Custom Lee die .3325"

Powder Through Expanders Tested:
-Stock Dillon SDB full wadcutter expander, straight .310" the full length of bullet, taper flare at top
-Custom 1 piece Dillon style full wadcutter expander made for me by one of the guys I've been emailing, straight .314" the full length of bullet, taper flare at top. The idea was to mimic the Dillon full wadcutter expander design but open the brass up more to accept the oversized bullets without "swaging" the bullet into tight brass
-PhotoEscape 3-4 piece expander, short stepped flare, got to sizes .316" & .317", just flares mouth
-PhotoEscape 3-4 piece full wadcutter expander, straight .314 full length of bullet, stepped flare at top

After some testing here's some observations:

- I feel that if you spend the time & money to buy or make the H&N clones you're being counterproductive by trying to shove these enlarged bullets into the tightly resized brass using stock .32 S&W dies. I tested this and by measuring the finish case I could tell the skirt/base of the bullet was being deformed. I did not however do any testing to see what the affect on accuracy is when you "swage" the base of the bullet. The precision rifle reloader in me says I need enough "neck" tension on the bullet to hold in place along with adequate crimp to ensure proper combustion, deformation of the bullet base just didn't seem to be optimal. 

- I noticed that if you try to use either one of the .314 full length expanders on too tightly sized brass like with the .330" stock Dillon die you end up getting a noticiable ridge around the brass where the bottom of the expander travels into the case. Its really odd, essentially where the bottom of the bullets is you get a visible ridge around the case. I can't tell if its actually creating so much pressure in the case that you're getting the bulge or if the downward pressure of the expander actually slightly compresses the brass thus creating a ridge. It was also very hard to remove the expander from the brass, I felt I was in dangerous territory with my smaller Dillon SDB and definitely didn't want to break my press. Finished rounds would not pass a "plunk test" in a stock GSP chamber. I actually had to carefully run these finished rounds through the Lee .314 sizing die to straighten the wall back out so it would "plunk" into the chamber (not recommended by the safety police). Its possible your pistol could hammer itself home and chamber/fire some rounds but I guarantee you'll have reliability issues.

- My first Lee custom sizing die (.334") was shipped very quickly (2 weeks after ordering) was at first very promising, it sized the brass very minimally and the full length .314 custom expanders didn't "stick" in the case, also no pressure ridge on the brass so good chambering. The problem is on some cases you could literally push the bullet all the way into the case with moderate finger pressure, the result was that often the crimp (.325") would push the bullet deeper into the brass. This varying seating depth is not a welcoming sight. I didn't test the accuracy difference. In a perfect world I could test a LOT more but I work full time, have a range that's only open on Saturday and have to contend with Winter weather. It's possible some things I'm worrying about may not affect accuracy too much but I'm attempting to create the most accurate and repeatable ammo I can, things like seating depth variations are not acceptable. 

- Using the shorter PhotoEscape .32 expanders, in my case I used the .316 & .317 size, you have to be careful how deep you flare. If you use the full length of the expander it will expand more of the mouth than the taper crimp will remove. Then you will be left with a ridge slightly below the mouth of the brass, this can cause issues with the plunk test. 

- The .3325" custom Lee sizing die I just got after a LONG 2 months wait seems to be nearly ideal. After looking back at some emails I found where David Wilson told me that his custom made sizing die will pass a .332" pin gage but not a .333" which is how I got to ordering the .3325" plus it was a good "in between" from my first .334" Lee die and the stock .330" Dillon die. Even when I used this sizing die to create near perfect sized cases I would still occasionally get the "pressure ridge" in the brass, much less than when using the tighter .330" sizing die but enough where it didn't plunk in a chamber consistently. The pistol might function but might not especially when dirty. I also recall David telling me he didn't use an expander, just brass sized correctly and maybe a light flare. I'll admit I was being stubborn thinking I needed a properly sized and full length expander however I found great results putting back in the Dillon stock .310" full wadcutter expander, basically just to flare the brass as the "stem" of this expander is fairly loose in the .3325" sized brass. Reading back I see where David also recommended using the stock Dillon funnel simply for the flare. 

So moral of this story is #1 listen to David Wilson, if I mimic'ed his sizing and no full length expander I could have saved myself some money, time and frustration. I wish I had the time and facilities he has to test, I'm jealous. Using my Dillon SDB, swaged/bumped H&N clones, custom Lee .3325" sizing die, squeaky clean once fired Lapua brass and a stock Dillon funnel to put a simple taper flare on the brass seems about as good as I can get so far. I not getting ANY pressure ridge on the brass so it plunks really well, the "neck tension" of the bullet in the case seems ideal (I can push the bullet approximately 1/2 way in with moderate finger pressure) so I don't feel I'm deforming the base of the bullet much if at all. The crimp also seems much more consistent, I'm almost getting zero bullet set back by the crimp die, out of 50 I just loaded I can only see a couple with bullets seated deeper and its by a very small amount.

David Wilson has tested my bullets and gotten very good results, 20 shot groups at about 1.5-2" and pictures can be seen in my bullet ad. One range testing day I got a 10 shot group at 2" off sandbags with just a red dot, after this group my red dot mount unsuspectingly started loosening up as did groups, got home and couldn't believe how loose the mount got, this was actually with new R-P brass I had prior to the Lapua brass. So get some good bullets, Lapua or RP brass, Lee .3325" die ($65 straight from Lee) and just use a funnel that flares the mouth so you don't shave lead and you've got a great start to getting good results. I've been using 1.7-1.8 Bullseye to get velocities in the 700-730 range.

Greetings,

I received sample bullets from Mr. Mosely and they are NOT H&N CLONES.

The hollow base is of Mr. Blackmon's design.

Truth in advertising, please.

Sincerely,

Dave

There are few more differences between Mr. Backmon's design and OEM H&N projectiles, i.e. lube grooves .  This link might be helpful - https://www.hn-sport.de/en/reloading/wc-hb-312-100-gr-l  OEM bullets are .312 in OD as shown on H&N website, although drawing below shows OD being 8mm, and exact conversion value is .3149" (SAAMI spec is .3150-.0006).  I also want to point as to how bullet is seated on the drawing, and the fact of case being cylindrical from top to bottom with OD value 8,56mm (.337" - which is exact SAAMI spec).
Since I do not load this caliber by myself, all the above is data I gathered from online sources.  My opinion about groves is based on bullets sent to me by Greg Benner when I was designing full length expander.
AP

Greetings,

If you examine an H&N HBWC, you will notice a part line. No, they are not cast, they are swaged in a clam shell die.

The slug is pressed into the die when closed and when the die is opened, the bullet is released.

(Herters made clam shell swaging dies years ago. I have some in the shop, somewhere.)

This allows H&N to produce the lube grooves. A cylindrical swage die like I, and others, use cannot produce the lube grooves. They would shear off when the bullet ejects.

When 'bumping' Speer Plinkers into bullets of a true 0.3143" diameter the lube grooves seem to not be needed.

Speer coats the Plinkers with what appears to be a Moly-type of lube. This has several benefits.

1) The lube works as an excellent lubricant during swaging. The bullet does not stick to the punch nor die.
2) The swaging process tends to capture the Moly and press it into the surface of the bullet and as a result it leads to easier loading and cleaner shooting.

I have shot the 'bumped' Plinkers for several years and noticed that the 'Moly' lube they use tends to keep the throat/leade of my barrels cleaner than other lubes.

Let us all hope that Speer continue production of the Plinkers.

Cheers,

Dave

fc60 wrote:Greetings,

I received sample bullets from Mr. Mosely and they are NOT H&N CLONES.

The hollow base is of Mr. Blackmon's design.

Truth in advertising, please.

Sincerely,

Dave

Correct. Dave, I believe we discussed this last year after I got the 2nd swaging tool from Mr. Blackmon (I think you mentioned it in my initial thread ). The bumped Speer has a slightly smaller diameter hole (a few thousandth) and is slightly deeper. Mr Blackmon wasn’t interested in redoing the tool, and since the resulting bullet was similar in accuracy (in my tests), I didn’t worry about it.

Also if you look at H&N's site they offer several .32 bullets, offerend in .312 and .314 diameters. Most everyone works off the .314 diameter.