How to seat, crimp, without shaving lead on 45 ACP #801 Magnus bullets

Between Terry Labbe and Dave Salyer, and all their advice, plus what I've learned here, my 45 ACP reloads are working fine.  No problems.   But I'm doing the last station, crimping, on my single station press.  My RCBS Pro2000 only has five stations, and one I insist on using for the RCBS Lock-Out Die.  Dave tells me that for 45 ACP, there's no need to separate the seating and crimping stations, both can be done in one station.  Terry told me about something he thought was a "Cowboy Die", that didn't do much crimping until the bullet was pretty much seated, and then it came in with the crimp.  Any ideas what kind of die this is, and where to get one?  Are all taper dies the same, or is what I'm trying to describe something that's readily available?

Station #1 is resize, deprime.
Station #2 is reprime, expand, and bell
Station #3 is powder drop
Station #4 is Lock-Out Die
Station #5 needs to be seat and crimp.


I'm wondering if I can take the seater "plug" I made, and install it in a seater/crimper die - it may not be the "best" technique, but I think it should "work".  
Maybe I can buy something that would work better??

Maybe I can use my 45ACP seating stem I just made, but put it in a crimper die that is larger than 45 ACP?

I just read this long article:
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/reloading-crimp-not-crimp-question/
For 45 ACP, why do I need to crimp any more than to just take out the bell?


Finally, which seater / taper-crimp dies are the better choices? 
I assume it should be carbide?

The cowboy die gives a short roll crimp.  Appropriate for cowboy loads that I hear are much lighter than BE.  I think they only shoot at spittin distance.  Accuracy is not a priority.  RCBS does not offer 45acp cowboys.  Doughboys maybe.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011720846/rcbs-cowboy-carbide-3-die-set

You should in 5 stations
1 size and deprime
2 expand and powder charge
3 powder check
4 seat
5 taper crimp

Dillon dies are my favorite for BE loading lead
https://www.dillonprecision.com/reloading-dies_8_4.html

+1 with Jack.
 I cannot agree with Dave on combining seating and crimp. Never have, never will. 
I like to control each separately.

+1 ... No crimping and seating at same time.

I also agree with the above and think I told you in a separate thread. Seat and crimp in separate stations and Dillon dies are great, they're well made basic dies and very easy to disassemble for cleaning.

I am new here as well as new to bullseye, my question is how much does it effect accuracy seating and crimping at the same time versus seating in one station and then crimping in the next ? I have an open station but have always seated and crimped at the same time. I have RCBS reloading equipment. Right now I am only good enough to keep my shots in the black at 25 yds. on a B 16 target, don't know if I will ever be good enough to keep them in the 10 ring, maybe if I started bullseye 35 years ago.

Seating and crimping with a roll crimp might be ok, but not taper crimping.  However if you only taper crimp to straightwall or so little inward, you might get by without the crimp dislodging some lead.

If you taper crimp deeper, imagine the bullet having to move into a collapsing opening.

Once I stopped trying to seat and crimp in the same step my 45 acp reloading became much easier.  I use a single stage press and even though it takes a little more time to seat separately and then crimp it sure is a lot easier.

Jack H wrote:Seating and crimping with a roll crimp might be ok, but not taper crimping.  However if you only taper crimp to straightwall or so little inward, you might get by without the crimp dislodging some lead.

If you taper crimp deeper, imagine the bullet having to move into a collapsing opening.

Terry, from Magnus Buillets, and Dave Salyer want me to do just the slightest amount of crimp - mostly take out the "bell".  Dave says to do the absolute minimum crimp, barely noticeable.

I'm not going to stop using my RCBS Lock-Out Die, meaning all the stations are taken on my 5-station press.  

What I'm doing now, is finish reloading the rounds (without crimping) on the RCBS Pro2000 progressive press, then use my single-station RCBS Big Max press to do the crimping manually.  I would prefer to avoid that, but unless I figure out a way to do a minimal crimp along with the seating on the progressive press, I will continue to use the two presses.


I have the same question that 'oso' asked:  "how much does it effect accuracy seating and crimping at the same time versus seating in one station and then crimping in the next ?"    I think the only way to answer that for myself is to load up 20 rounds each way, and compare the results.  Until then, I'll continue with the two presses.

(Removing the lock-out die is not an option for me right now.  It has never yet found a problem, and likely never will.  It's like anti-lock brakes, in that it doesn't do anything until when/if it needs to.)

(Another option is to buy the newer RCBS 7-station progressive press, but unfortunately for me, that means dealing with a primer tube again, which I also won't do.)

Open the inside diameter  of the seat, taper crimp die  using a wood dowel of the correct size and emery paper.  

Work slowly as to not remove all of the crimp area in the die. Dont go too deep.

Take some scrap brass , size and expand the bell an extra amount.  Just so the case mouth will just barley enter the die.  

Run cases part way into the die and measure case mouth. This will show how much the flare is being removed and where in the die.

Using a new case each time should show how much metal  is being removed.

My RCBS 45 acp  die always shaved lead on seating. Left a tiny ring of lead in the chamber. Enlarging the inside diameter of the die removed the problem.

The Cowdoy dies  are not availible for 45 acp.

The expanders do run larger in diameter then the standard. Expanders are for lead bullets that normally run .001"  larger then jacketed.

I think if your only going to crimp enough to take the bell out of the case it would be easier to crimp and seat at the same time but if your going to crimp to .464 or .465 it is much easier to crimp and seat in two steps.  My 45 was put together by Dave Salyer and it is much happier with a .464-.465 crimp at least with my reloads.

Does your powder drop include a case expand and bell feature?  If it does you can place the dies just like my list above.

troystaten wrote:I think if your only going to crimp enough to take the bell out of the case it would be easier to crimp and seat at the same time but if your going to crimp to .464 or .465 it is much easier to crimp and seat in two steps.  My 45 was put together by Dave Salyer and it is much happier with a .464-.465 crimp at least with my reloads.

From Dave, after seeing a photo of my reloads:   "Don’t add more crimp. It just needs to be a couple thousandths less in diameter than the case near the edge. Factory .45’s have no crimp but reloads need some."

Jack H wrote:Does your powder drop include a case expand and bell feature?  If it does you can place the dies just like my list above.

The RCBS Pro2000 has the powder feed in station #3, which is part of the press.  There is a die holder plate that is removable, and holds all the other dies.

I think I remember something about a "powder drop", if I wanted to move my powder drop.  I may have even bought the part long ago.  I will check this out.  Yes, if I did that, and moved the powder drop, everything else can happen as you describe.

Sometime the simple fix is flaring the case mouth more.

Jack H wrote:Does your powder drop include a case expand and bell feature?  If it does you can place the dies just like my list above.

I didn't think I could do this, but I was wrong.  You reminded me of something from many years ago, which I forgot.  When I purchased the Pro2000 press, without knowing much about it, I also purchased a "Powder Thru Expander Pro 2000 45 ACP.  I don't understand all the instructions yet, but this will allow me to move the powder drop to station #2 where the new primer will be installed, the case will be re-sized using something like an "M-Style Expander", and the powder will be loaded.  This means my Lock-Out Die can go in station #3, I can seat the bullet in station #4, and crimp in station #5.  That's what all you guys are all suggesting. 

http://rcbs.com/Products/Powder-Measures-and-Scales/Powder-Measures/Progressive/Pistol-Powder-Expanders-Pro-2000.aspx

I know nothing about the RCBS press you have.  But if the primer has to be seated at station 2 where you are going to drop powder, I hope the primer seats first and then the powder drops.  You do not want to seat a primer into a case already containing powder, for I hope obvious reasons.

Yes, that's how it works.
Load a case in station #1
Pull the lever forwards, and the case is resized
Lower the lever, and the case is moved to station #2
Push the lever away from you, and the primer is seated
Pull the lever forwards, and the powder is dropped into the case
Lower the lever and the press indexes again.   .......and so on.

Here's a 9-minute video about the Pro2000:


The video shows the powder drop mounted into the frame of the press, not the die holder, in station #3.
To gain one more station, I need to move it to station #2, mounted to the die plate.

No hurry, while I'm sorting all this out, I can use the two-press method.

Because of the way primers are handled, this is the only progressive press I would use.
I know, many people feel differently.......

What Dave has been asking me to do to check the crimp, is to stand up two rounds next to each other and look at the cases near the bullets.  If the spacing opens up just the least amount, the crimp is what he prefers.

Here are two rounds I just made, first time using Winchester WST "shotshell" powder.  The next line says WST Ball Powder", and it does seem to behave more like round balls.  My powder measure seems to be more accurate using WST, with repeatable readings, better than I had with Bullseye.

For the same volume, the charge was 3.someting instead of 4.2, so it took more volume to get the load up to 4.2, but once I got it there, it was repeatable.

Here's a photo I just took of two of the rounds side by side, showing the small crimp:

Has anyone in this forum tried one of these?

https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/daa-2-in-1-seating-and-crimping-die

Mike, most just-don't-believe-in-it.

seat, then crimp.

That's what I'm still doing, with the crimping done in my single station press.

Maybe I'll eventually decide I don't need the Lock-Out Die, which will make things easier for me.

Actually I have a "6th station", as I manually mark all the cases.  But that gives me a good final look at them before placing them in my ammo box.  Two rounds tonight had tiny cracks at the very end - I've been using this same group of 200 or so cases for three or four years.  I'll replace all of them with new ones, once I start shooting my WWB ammo, in the Les Baer.

Despite what I write here, I am still listening to you guys, as I'm still seating and crimping in separate stations.  I've got plenty of free time, so it's not that inconvenient.  And I am happy with how nicely they're turning out!

So are you working on a single stage or progressive? I always recommend a 5 station progressive so you can use separate powder check, seat and crimp stations.

I'm using an RCBS Pro2000 Five Station Progressive Press.

(One of those five stations is the RCBS Lock-Out Die.)