I’m at my wits end..lead shaving

Here is some photos of what I’m getting!  With the bullet seated you can hopefully see that thin shaved lead around the case mouth.  I’ve also included a empty case with amount of flare I’m using.  I don’t get this all the time but maybe 10 out of 100.  It’s making me insane!!!  The bad thing about it is if I don’t wipe it off it creates a chambering issue.  I also seem to get it with non coated bullets as well raw lead that is.  I’ve gone as far as belling lots more to the point that if I were to try and resize a belled case it would not go into the sizing die if I tried to resize it.  These are all Winchester cases.

What am I doing wrong?  The lead shaving will wipe off but I’d really like to not have to wipe every loaded round after the fact.  Jhp no issues what so ever!

all dies cleaned etc.

Help me keep whatever hair I have left!

Thanks everyone 

Joe

Here is how far the bullet goes in with current bell. 

And a good example of what I wipe off

It looks like the projectile is tipping and not seating straight as it is being pressed in causing one side to shave on the case mouth.

What are you using for a seating die?

Assuming you are not trying to crimp and seat in one operation, is the seating die backed off to where the crimping section cannot contact the case during seating?

Are you crimping in a secondary operation? If not, do, and back your seating die out a full turn.

Good questions!  Crimping is separate station.  Dillon seater does not have crimping.  Now the bullet tilting might be an issue I never thought of!
All dies are Dillon

Funny, it does only happen on one edge. Not completely around.  Maybe too much bell causing bullet to tipma bit?

I went nuts doing the same thing until I made seating die inserts that press on the shoulder of LSWC's rather than the "cone" (.45 and .38 Spec)

It needs cleaning...

You could try flipping the seater over. The other end may solve the issue.

Joe,
Please answer these three questions:
1. Are you using Dillon's OEM funnel?
2. What is the hardness of your projectiles?
3. Do you use Mr. Bulletfeeder?

AP

PhotoEscape wrote:Joe,
Please answer these three questions:
1. Are you using Dillon's OEM funnel?
2. What is the hardness of your projectiles?
3. Do you use Mr. Bulletfeeder?

AP

1.  No, I’m using the mr bullet feeder funnel
2.  I’d say around 12-14 
3.  Yes..well my 3d printed one with a mr bullet feeder die

1.  Check tip of that funnel.  Does it have signs of serrations?  Is it made of stainless steel?
2.  Is it your own cast?
3.  I'm talking about projectile being forcefully inserted in the case.  OEM Mr. Bulletfeeder has three balls that hold projectile while it is inserted in the case, preventing bullet from tilting.

AP

PhotoEscape wrote:1.  Check tip of that funnel.  Does it have signs of serrations?  Is it made of stainless steel?
2.  Is it your own cast?
3.  I'm talking about projectile being forcefully inserted in the case.  OEM Mr. Bulletfeeder has three balls that hold projectile while it is inserted in the case, preventing bullet from tilting.

AP

Seems pretty smooth
My own cast as well as store bought coated bullets
Yes, it has the 3 balls in the die

I think I was belling too much honestly.  I think that would cause the bullets to tip a bit when I maybe got too aggressive with the handle.  I’ve adjusted for what I think is optimal bell and will try again in the morning

Devil is in details.  I suggest you check expander portion of the tip.  If it is less than 0.454" then you have DAA funnel, and it is made out of stainless steel.  Significance of this is in the fact that stainless steel and brass gall forcing greater brass contraction.  If your projectiles have more than 0.452" OD, the culprit for lead shaving is edge of the bell.

AP

Search "shaving" in this forum. I seem to recall discussion about the depth of the nose of the seating plug in the die.

I got lead shavings with a shoulder seating die (this was on a Star). I went back to my nose seater and haven't gotten back to the shoulder seater yet.

I remember sitting on the trunk of my rental car in Canton in 2013, meticulously cleaning lead shavings off of each short line round with a screwdriver. Not fun.

PhotoEscape wrote:Devil is in details.  I suggest you check expander portion of the tip.  If it is less than 0.454" then you have DAA funnel, and it is made out of stainless steel.  Significance of this is in the fact that stainless steel and brass gall forcing greater brass contraction.  If your projectiles have more than 0.452" OD, the culprit for lead shaving is edge of the bell.

AP

I will check that.  It is a DAA funnel however for sure.  It is stainless as well.  Bullets are sized at .451.5

PhotoEscape wrote:Devil is in details.  I suggest you check expander portion of the tip.  If it is less than 0.454" then you have DAA funnel, and it is made out of stainless steel.  Significance of this is in the fact that stainless steel and brass gall forcing greater brass contraction.  If your projectiles have more than 0.452" OD, the culprit for lead shaving is edge of the bell.

AP

Just measured

The first ledge or tip is .449. The second ledge is .454.  Is this the problem?

Dimensions are the same as on my PTUs.  Although mine have +0.0005" tolerance.  Could be due to material for the funnel.

There are couple of things to try:
a. Different brass cases;
b. Same brass cases but with lesser number of reloads.  TMBK brass tends to have bigger spring back as number of reloads increases, especially with stainless funnel in the picture.
c. Different funnel.  I can ship you one of mine for testing.  If it works - you owe me a payment, and post on this tread.  If results are the same, ship mine back.

AP

PhotoEscape wrote:Dimensions are the same as on my PTUs.  Although mine have +0.0005" tolerance.  Could be due to material for the funnel.

There are couple of things to try:
a. Different brass cases;
b. Same brass cases but with lesser number of reloads.  TMBK brass tends to have bigger spring back as number of reloads increases, especially with stainless funnel in the picture.
c. Different funnel.  I can ship you one of mine for testing.  If it works - you owe me a payment, and post on this tread.  If results are the same, ship mine back.

AP

All brass is Winchester once fired. Guess I could clean up some of the twice fired and see if that changes anything.

Pm sent.  I would love to take you up on your offer.  Thank you so much

The inside diameter of the seating die is to small. Its removing the case bell that you applied. 
Modify the ID and/or try moving the seating stem down a lot. 

I did both adjustments to my RCBS  seating die  years ago. . No more lead ring ending up in the guns chamber. 

Test-  flare the case mouth to maximum.  Measure case mouth diameters  when inserting empty case in to die   Measure at 3 locations , different levels,   mouth, middle and  ram at higes  point. .

243winxb wrote:The inside diameter of the seating die is to small. Its removing the case bell that you applied. 
Modify the ID and/or try moving the seating stem down a lot. 

I did both adjustments to my RCBS  seating die  years ago. . No more lead ring ending up in the guns chamber. 

Test-  flare the case mouth to maximum.  Measure case mouth diameters  when inserting empty case in to die   Measure at 3 locations , different levels,   mouth, middle and  ram at higes  point. .

It’s a Dillon die. And the seating die does not have a stem etc.  it’s a odd design.  I make have to break down and try another brand die to see if that helps

I will however run a belled case up in the seating die without a bullet and see if it’s doing what you say.  If so, time to change dies

Common sense would tell us that the funnel created by belling the case cannot shave the bullet edge.  So we wonder if the bell is really still there during the seating action.  That's why the questions are circling around the issue of whether the die is really compressing this bell before or during seating.  Hence the questions about die internal diameter, whether there is a crimping section in the die that is in play, etc.

Many of us have moved away from belling and use a two-step expander.  I make my own, but Photoescape has made them available to all of us now.

You mentioned it only shaves on one side, is it the same side relative to the die each time?  Does this happen with different brands lead bullets? Is this a new problem, or always been this way?  I..e. Have you changed anything, like brass or bullets that might somehow relate to the issue? I had this issue occasionally with 32 wadcutters, but the 2 stage PTU from Photo Escape solved it.

Dr.Don wrote:Common sense would tell us that the funnel created by belling the case cannot shave the bullet edge.  So we wonder if the bell is really still there during the seating action.  That's why the questions are circling around the issue of whether the die is really compressing this bell before or during seating.  Hence the questions about die internal diameter, whether there is a crimping section in the die that is in play, etc.

Many of us have moved away from belling and use a two-step expander.  I make my own, but Photoescape has made them available to all of us now.

I ran a belled case up thru the seater die all by itself.  Came back out the same as it went in.  I’m using a 2 step expander from DAA.  Will be trying photoescapes to see if it makes any difference.  Everyone says bell more and honestly thinkthat may be the issue.  Too much bell will let the bullet tip a tiny bit to one side if I get too aggressive with the press handle.  Just a thought.  I hope to get to then reloading room and adjust but I’m in the process of relocating the reloading room to the basement.  Wife’s Dad is coming to live with us and he needs a room.  Well at least I get more space now..hahahahaha

gregbenner wrote:You mentioned it only shaves on one side, is it the same side relative to the die each time?  Does this happen with different brands lead bullets? Is this a new problem, or always been this way?  I..e. Have you changed anything, like brass or bullets that might somehow relate to the issue? I had this issue occasionally with 32 wadcutters, but the 2 stage PTU from Photo Escape solved it.

Never paid much attention to it honestly.  Seems to do it more with coated bullets than anything.  But, it does seem to do it with everything lead I put thru it.