New High Standard - What do you guys think about it?

(If you wish skip through the first four paragraphs of my rambling on about my thoughts.........)

This thread is just sort of thinking out loud.  I've been posting several threads trying to improve my performance, and while they've all helped, I rarely do well at matches.  Maybe I should say I rarely do as well as I'd like to do.  Years ago, I shot my High Standard, and my Model 41.  The HS had problems which I now know are because the magazine that came with the gun had the spring in backwards, so the follower was pointing at the moon.  Back then, I didn't understand any of this stuff.  I also had my Model 41, which I've been shooting since the late 1970's.  I enjoyed it, although it developed its own "quirks".  Then I decided to keep my left hand in my pocket, and the world changed.

Again, mostly using the 41, things kept getting better, but slowly.  I read here "what to do", and tried, but I wasn't seeing the results I wanted.  So, I bought a Nelson kit, which is now off at Nelson having the barrel replaced.  I think the chamber was too tight, but I'll find out tomorrow when I call Larry Nelson.  Anyway, neither gun was doing what I wanted, meaning the likely culprit was ME.

So, I dug out my old High Standard, figured out how to correct the spring orientation in the magazine, and started using it.  Wow.  It was like a breath of fresh air.  My grouping and everything else improved, and there were no failures.  Fast forward to today - I took it to our club's "Old Shooter's Match", which is like Bullseye, but it's shot at 25 yards and then 15, not 50 and 25.  

Results for me were quite pleasing - I finished 9th out of 32, with a score of 863, and the only two "issues" were one when the round jammed against the top of the slide (alibi), and another when the gun fired but the round did nothing (another alibi).  As to the gun, it did all the things guns are supposed to do, if you learn how - it was easy to aim, and after firing it was easy to bring it right back on the target.  With my Aimpoint it's light enough for me to hold it steady, and with the grips I have on it now, it fits my hand perfectly.  It's a joy to shoot.  When I go to the range for practice, my groups are often pretty durn close to being in the 10-ring, which is now my goal.  It's easy to clean.  The only thing I struggle with is breaking the barrel loose so I can lift it off the frame - but it always comes off, eventually.   :-)




What all this is leading up to, is I was reading the thread here about the new High Standard guns that will start to be available very soon.  I called Alan Aronstein, and they'll be available with a rail, so I can use my red dot sight.  I started thinking I should buy one of them - my own High Standard was modified quite a bit - it's now in my Avatar.  Anyway, this got me to looking in the Rimfire forums, and reading that the old ones were fantastic guns, but people had to fiddle with them to get them to work properly.  I read this numerous times.
The post here:  (https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t13088-high-standard-texas-plant )

So, my question here, is whether this would be a good idea for me to get one, or a major pain getting it to operate properly.  You guys must know FAR more about it than I do.  Any advice or thoughts?

(I thought about Volquartsen, and others, but I keep coming back to High Standard.)

Here's a photo from their new website:

After talking with Alan, I ordered new 10X a couple weeks ago and expect it by mid October. I want to support his efforts.
1. I appreciate him sharing his knowledge on this site.
2. He replaced a frame for another Bullseye shooter I know a couple of years ago and is working well. I just sent him a cracked Victor to replace frame too.
3. I want to support American Manufacturing and all the skills that go into guns such as machining and gunsmithing.
4. They are around $400. cheaper than a new S&W 41. I had multiple phone calls to S&W last year to have them take back a Victory 22 that wouldn't reliably feed CCI SV . They wanted me to call TandemKross for their parts. TandemKross told me that they had 3 mods to their parts since S&W had quality problems holding hole locations.  Finally after Safety broke they agreed to work on it. I don't understand why S&W uses Tandemkross parts in their Performance Center Victory either. Felt I was getting a run around.
5. I really appreciate being able to talk with Alan personally about my old HS's, parts for my old guns as well as trying a new one. So much better Customer Service than I got with S&W.
6. He doesn't cut you off short when I explained I have one HS 107 Supermatic Citation with an LSP barrel that only likes Aguila Pistol Match. Alan suggested trying the Super Extra too at 1/2 the cost of Pistol Match and $60 case cheaper than CCI SV. Super Extra shooting well so far in summer temperatures.

Looking forward to trying the new gun.

Mike, I would recommend waiting until you see what the rail looks like. The only pictures available show the rail as a short thing that only fits on the barrel and does not go over the slide. I like my dots to the rear of the pistol. BME makes a slide that should fit like the old Marvel rail.

Len

Gustavo1957 wrote:After talking with Alan, .................. I want to support his efforts.

I feel the same way, ever since I got my first (and so far, only) High Standard.  I found lots of reasons to dislike the gun, it was/is such a pain to remove the barrel, and the grip and other mods someone made to it were not very good for me, but with the new grips you see in my "Avatar", it is certainly one of my favorite guns.  It's reliable, comfortable, it fits "me" very well, and I do well with it.

Back to my thoughts, I bought the barrel you now see in my Avatar from Alan - I think it was $400.  He told me where to get the rail, and the combination seems excellent.  I still have my old parts.  As soon as I get to talk to Alan, I want to ask I'm about buying the new gun without a barrel or rail, and just using the parts I already bought from him.  (I can put the original barrel and rail and Tasco sight back onto my current gun as a "backup".


There's lots of other brands, and then there's the Model 41, but somehow the High Standard seems like something "special" to me.  My Model 41 and my Nelson seem to shoot more or less the same, but the High Standard is easier to shoot better with - for me, at least.

I’ve got two HSs,  anVictor and a Clark conversion. Both are excellent. However, neither are my favorites for a couple reasons. 1, the slide release is on the right, which is different than any of my other guns, and the magazine release is awkward. Not huge, but.....   2, they can be problematic feeding due to the feed ramp. Again, not huge but there are so many great guns available that don’t have these issues. Plus. this is perhaps the 4th or 5th iteration of the gun, which to me will confuse most buyers down the road, and therefore might impact future value. Same with magazines, lots of different iterations, can be confusing.

I really like the triggers on both my HSs but definitely no better than either of my 41s.

Plus, although Alan is indeed a great guy, I think he may be as old as I am, and the future might be uncertain. 

These are merely my thoughts, I definitely wish Alan much success.

gregbenner wrote:...........they can be problematic feeding due to the feed ramp................

I've read this in a few places - are there things people do to minimize this issue?  My gunsmith can make a feed ramp look like a polished mirror - is this a good thing to do on the HS ?

While I'm here asking.....     as 'gregbenner' pointed out, the slide release is on the right side of the gun.  Is there some reason for that?  It just feels so inconvenient. but there must be a reason for it?????

....and maybe someone can show me a simpler way to remove the barrel.  I take the gun and place an aluminum block against the push-button, then give the block a good strike with a hammer.  That breaks the push-button free.  Then, I hold the gun, pointing down, and place the top edge of the pushbutton along the edge of my table, and push down on the gun.  Push button hopefully slides in, and while it's in, I can pull off the barrel.   Or, everything slides off the edge of the table, and I try again.   Is there some simple way to do this that I've never yet learned?

I just push it in with my thumb.

Hmm, I think your thumb is twice the size of mine, with ten times the strength.     :-)

(I read that I should NEVER put any lubricant on those parts, so I haven't.  Sure was tempted though.....)

When pressing the HS button in and the barrel is difficult to wiggle free of the frame, the round part of the hole in the plunger may not be exactly where it needs to be.  Press less if need be.  Or consider shortening the plunger spring a wee bit if the hole needs to be farther back.

Jack H wrote:When pressing the HS button in and the barrel is difficult to wiggle free of the frame, the round part of the hole in the plunger may not be exactly where it needs to be.  Press less if need be.  Or consider shortening the plunger spring a wee bit if the hole needs to be farther back.

Next time I clean, I'll try that.   

After posting what I did, I tried another search for how to do this, and found another YouTube video, more detailed than. last time.  ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnzWnbub_cE ).  This guy sprays all those parts with lubricant.  Unless LenV wants to let me borrow his thumb, maybe I'll try that next time.  

.......I think I'm living in the past.  All the firearms I enjoy so much are ancient.  I have no interest in the plastic fantastic new stuff.  I'm glad I never sell stuff any more - I can easily get re-excited about something that's been sitting in a box or in my safe for years.

Jack H wrote:When pressing the HS button in and the barrel is difficult to wiggle free of the frame, the round part of the hole in the plunger may not be exactly where it needs to be.  Press less if need be.  Or consider shortening the plunger spring a wee bit if the hole needs to be farther back.

For me, the barrel never comes out until I've pushed the button in as far as it seems to go.   Maybe after lubricating the parts, I'll be able to do that with my thumb, and see what's going on.  Until now, I just push it down against the edge of my workbench.  Thanks, one more thing to check out.  I've got two barrels' and they both fit the same, so maybe I need to check out the spring.

When you get a chance, put one of these new models in a Ransom Rest and let us know how it does.

mikemyers wrote:

gregbenner wrote:...........they can be problematic feeding due to the feed ramp................

I've read this in a few places - are there things people do to minimize this issue?  My gunsmith can make a feed ramp look like a polished mirror - is this a good thing to do on the HS ?

Mike,
 The High Standard design does not have a feed ramp in a traditional sense.  The cartridge is guided into the chamber by the magazine lips.  The magazine lips are adjusted for the ammunition you are using to achieve proper feeding and once that is done, the gun should work quite well.  The "problems" occur when a) you change ammunition (each make and model of cartridge is different) or b) you drop and bend a magazine lip (which can be adjusted back but likely won't work right until you do).  I have an East Hartford Victor that I have been shooting for the last couple of years and I have very few problems with it at all.  I have even gotten different magazines recently that work great (after adjusting that is) and the seller of those mags said he was having issues with them.  I would be more concernd with how the gun fits you and how well you shoot it than reliability.

Good luck.

John

I am not sure about these “new” models, new meaning now, but in recent years the HS’s have been notorious for not working. I have seen some within the last 5 years or so that show some obvious quality control issues. I have not seen a single master or high master shooter shooting one. I hope the HS house is in order now, but I will not find out with my money. Keep us posted and good luck.

Hmm, every time I think I understand something, I find out I was wrong.   Compared to most of you, I'm still in kindergarten regarding most of the things we discuss here.

Anyway, I noticed what I thought might have been the "feed ramp" in my gun last night, but from what you write, it isn't.  Makes sense, it's the magazines that control the ammo going into the gun.  

(Is there a good page with the settings to check, to make sure mine are correct, and to allow me to restore them if I ever need to??)

I had *no* idea this changed with different ammo.  Makes sense, I guess.  I usually find ammo that seems to work, and stick with it forever, or until it no longer works for some strange reason.

The last thing you wrote is the biggie.  The gun fits me better than any other 22 I own or have shot.  It feels like a part of my right hand.  It feels balanced.  It's comfortable.  After firing, it gets closer and closer to springing back to where it was before I fired.  As to how well I shoot with it, my group size went down by an inch moving to the HS from either the 41 or the Nelson.  I'm puzzled about why, but pleased with the end result.

Like I said, I need to find a way to disassemble it better, or to visit Len each time I want to do so.  I also struggle to grip the slide to pull it back to cock the hammer, as it's hard to get a good grip on it.  I moved the red dot sight a little towards the front from what's in my picture, so I can grip the slide better.  

Thanks; I'm definitely feeling good about the gun!

BEA wrote:I am not sure about these “new” models, new meaning now, but in recent years the HS’s have been notorious for not working.  I have seen some within the last 5 years or so that show some obvious quality control issues. I have not seen a single master or high master shooter shooting one. I hope the HS house is in order now, but I will not find out with my money.  Keep us posted and good luck.

My understanding is that for a number of years, Alan had been forced out of the business and all the people who really understand the gun left.  So, for the past five years, the guns might have said High Standard, but weren't up to the quality people expect.  Now the "old team" is back in place, and having spoken to Alan an hour ago, they have improved over the previous designs.  

Do I trust them enough to find out with my money?  All I can say is I was ready to give Alan my credit card number today, but the gun wouldn't arrive until after I return from India.  Oh well.....    I'll get one when I return.

Mike,

Jim Barta's webpage has a lot of HS info, including documents on magazines and a tool to adjust the mag's lips. http://www.histandard.info/Jim_Barta/ The magazine dimensions provided are a good starting point, but I have mags that needed quite a bit of adjustment from these dimensions to feed reliably. Once set, mine did not need additional tweaking. I record the dimension that works for each mag - just in case.

.22LR ammo is not all the same length. Here's my limited review of cartridge lengths of the different ammo I had access to. Without a traditional feed ramp, cartridge length is a significant variable and mag lips MAY need to be adjusted for different ammo.

Mfgr Stock Number COL
CCI Standard 0032/0035 .984" - .990"
Federal Gold Medal Tgt 711B .980" - .983"
SK Standard+ 420101 .978" - .985"
Federal AutoMatch AM22 .975" - .985"
SK Pistol Match 420114 .974" - .985"
Lapua Pistol King 420164 .973" - .975”
Federal Gold Medal Match 922A .966" - .968"

Sorry the table is such a mess. If anyone knows how to get this arcane software to accept some basic formatting, please share. The columns are supposed to be Manufacturer and Style - Stock Number - Shortest-Longest Cartridge measured.

Code:

         Mfgr                            Stock Number              COL              [size=16][/size]
CCI                                 Standard 0032/0035         .984" - .990".       [size=16][/size]
Federal Gold Medal Tgt              711B                       .980" - .983".       [size=16][/size]
SK Standard+                        420101                     .978" - .985".       [size=16][/size]
Federal AutoMatch                   AM22                       .975" - .985".       [size=16][/size]
SK Pistol Match                     420114                     .974" - .985".       [size=16][/size]
Lapua Pistol King                   420164                     .973" - .975”.       [size=16][/size]
Federal Gold Medal Match            922A                       .966" - .968"

I used the "code" tool in the menu, entered your data, then adjusted.

Thanks for the link to all that information.  I'll bookmark it, and also save it in files on my computer.

This webpage is shutting down on October 31; not sure what will happen to all the High Standard information stored there:
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/Indices/226190.html

LOTS more information:
http://www.histandard.info

My own information that I just downloaded so it won't vanish in a month:
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=226190;article=29413;



Nothing on the web is "permanent".  Websites vanish, and YouTube shuts off good gun information because of the word "gun".  Better to download copies of everything you need, and to use a program like "https://www.4kdownload.com/products/product-videodownloader " to store training videos on your own computer, so they don't get lost when YouTube deletes them.

Sorry for the digression, and thanks for the information.

Having owned a few HS's many years ago and having listened to club members' woes and the woes of members of the old Bullseye-L e-mail list in the 90's about the Houston HS pistols, I concluded that there are more reliable and accurate .22 target pistols out there. Having said that, it's your money, do what you want.

Since this thread invites thought, here is mine.  Unless you are in bullseye shooting for the tinkering aspect of it, shooting a 22 pistol that requires different mags for different brands of ammo is ludicrous, IMO.  I can pick up any appropriate magazine for my Marvel, mod 41, Pardini or the GSP that I used to own, and they all work. Back when I started shooting, almost everyone used either a HS Victor or a Model 41.  These finicky ammo problems did not exist. The HS pistols of the day were a work of art and reflected the talents and expectations Bob Shea.  For the last 25 years, HS has developed the reputation of having to be constantly tinkered with to keep them running.  Reliability and quality issues are an unwanted distraction and as a result, the HS pistols have been largely rejected by the bullseye community.  Since these issues have been going on for so long, it seems that the engineers at HS need to listen more and talk less. Get with the real world and stop trying to live off a 40 yr old reputation.  I talked to a nice enough person from HS one time, was looking at some of the pistols on the table and there were some decent enough groups included.  I asked at what distance the groups were fired.  I was told 20 yds.  My first thought was that a 20 yd group offers me no useful information, and the company must be out of touch with what bullseye shooters want. I like to see what other shooters are using.  I find it interesting to see what other shooters like.  I have seen no master or high master shooters using a HS.  I am sure their are some, but they are no doubt shooting an old model.  As for price, it makes no difference how much less they are than a 41 if they are not reliable.  Bullseye shooters have demonstrated that they will spend lots of money for good equipment. I can pick up a HS target pistol and it really does feel nice, the grip fits, the balance is good.  I just cannot tolerate the seemingly constant problems.  Consider the talk here...I can't get my barrel off, I need a bigger thumb, perhaps the spring needs checking, maybe the slot needs to be farther back.  Dang, we are just trying to get it apart, a design that has been in place for many decades.  I only wish HS the best of success, really.  Good luck to all that have purchased "new" guns.  I hope you have no alibis and shoot high scores.

Hello,

An old school remedy to remove a tight High Standard barrel....grasping the pistol like you are going to shoot it, place the take down button against the leading edge of your work bench, using you body weight push the pistol forward (actuating the button).  No thumbs needed.  Easy peasy.

My free advice to mikemyers....in another thread, it was recommended that you shoot the High Standard you own but you wanted to concentrate on other pistols.  Pick a pistol, which ever it may be, and stick with that one until your scores indicate otherwise.

Jim

spursnguns wrote:An old school remedy to remove a tight High Standard barrel....grasping the pistol like you are going to shoot it, place the take down button against the leading edge of your work bench, using you body weight push the pistol forward (actuating the button).  No thumbs needed.  Easy peasy........

Thanks for the previous posts, and what you wrote, last night I dug around for questions I had asked four or five years ago, which I've long since forgotten. Reading them was like a breath of fresh air.  Included in them, was a link to the instructions for my own gun:
http://www.histandard.info/manuals/lpbpistols/0205D150R.pdf

The last page explains how High Standard expected me to disassemble it back in the 1960's.  I've never tried it this way - will check out your advice, and probably start with following the written instructions.  There's that line "When all else fails, read the instructions".   If they work, all my trouble until now becomes MY fault, not the fault of the gun.  I will also lubricate the locking ball next time I have it apart.  There's a lot more useful information for my High Standard in those pages - maybe it applies to many HS guns.     ........I'm going to feel very foolish if their way works for me!

spursnguns wrote:..........My free advice to mikemyers....in another thread, it was recommended that you shoot the High Standard you own but you wanted to concentrate on other pistols.  Pick a pistol, which ever it may be, and stick with that one until your scores indicate otherwise.........

I agree.  I wanted to shoot my other guns because I was frustrated with my High Standard.  Then a few days ago I took off the fancy "stuff" that someone put on it, and left it like what you see in my Avatar.  You hit the nail on the head, but MY High Standard, in MY hands, as of today, shoots groups one to two inches smaller than MY Model 41 or MY Nelson.  With both of those guns, I've been struggling to just keep all my shots in the black at 25 yards.  That was my goal.  With MY High Standard, the groups are getting close to being in the 10-ring.  My 25-yard target scores were up in the 90's - ditto for my 15-yard scores, but they don't count.  All of this is with B-8 targets.  The only part of what I just wrote (which applies to what you wrote) is that I currently shoot the High Standard better than either of my other guns.

(Which leaves me feeling that I need to send the $$ to Alan, and get one of his new guns.)

BEA. - you wrote  "Bullseye shooters have demonstrated that they will spend lots of money for good equipment. I can pick up a HS target pistol and it really does feel nice, the grip fits, the balance is good........"
I think what you just wrote is why I shoot it better, not because it's a "better" gun, but because either it fits me, or I fit it.  Some combination.....