How to destroy your Model 41 by following the instructions.....

In a different thread, we are discussing how to solve some issues in a S&W Model 41.  I'd like to post the following in a new thread, so anyone with a Model 41 is likely to see it.  This is based on information posted on the S&W Forum last year, including photos.  If you install a Wolff spring as per the instructions that come with the spring, you may very well literally destroy your gun.  Read the link, before telling me I'm using too strong a word:

First, the complete link:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-semi-auto-pistols/583065-alert-now-updates-when-changing-recoil-spring-model-41-a.html

.....and to jump ahead to the photos:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/140339152-post15.html

True story. This happened to me once. Destroy is a little much though. It took a bit of time to get the guide smoothed up and replaced the spring. Of course it froze up in a match.

Len

The same thing can happen on a 22/1911 conversion. My early Nelson did it and totally shredded the guide rod. The Nelson guys took care of me and said they had tweaked the parts to prevent this.

Of the guns that were written about in the posts on S&W, one that was sent to S&W to repair (at Wolff's expense) could not be repaired.  Wolff had to replace it.

LenV, how difficult was it for you to even get the gun apart?  Maybe you're right, instead of "destroy" I should have used a lesser word, or added "potentially" in front of it.   I got goosebumps just reading those threads, and took my gun apart to find the hole they talked about.  I didn't realize the hole was even there.

Curious - if something like this happens at a match, as it did for you, can you call an "alibi", and continue with a different gun?  Or is that not allowed?

There are 4 methods of “finishing” a Compression spring end.  

Open, where the wire is cut at 90 degrees to its axis.

Open and ground square, where the open ended spring has the end coil ground square to the long axis of the spring.  For a high pitch spring like a recoil spring this doesn’t buy anything.

Closed, where the last coil is wrapped to have the last two complete turns touching.

Closed and ground, where the closed spring has the end groups do square to the long axis to give about 3/4 diameter contact.  

Wolff is very likely using smaller wire to get these reduced power springs as it’s the easiest solution.  The open and unground ends give a slight increase in energy as it is still a “working coil” hence their reluctance to change the design.  The downside to this small wire and open ends is the migration shown in the link.  

There are OTHER solutions to the functioning issues of a 41 than using light recoil springs.

Mike, You definitely get an alibi when your pistol locks up solid. Well, as long as you don't try to clear/free it. As far as taking it apart I just rocked the slide back and forth until the spring wormed it's way out of the guide rod hole thru frame. I may have used some force.

 

Like Len said, not really that hard to fix. I've repaired / fixed quite a few of these over the years.  This problem has been around for years. It ain't just the Wolff springs, its also shooters clipping coils to try and "fix" problems and then putting the spring in with the open / cut coil forward.  

Not too hard to fix, IF the shooter / quasi-gunsmith has not created other problems jumping the gun with solutions before the real problem is identified.  More damage is generally done by people trying to get the slide open and really binding and damaging things before they realize the real issue.  

Just like most everything else, including the internet, running around with your hair on fire usually just results in starting more fires.  Nowadays, I just bring the marshmallows and bourbon and try to watch quietly. 

CR

LenV wrote:Mike, You definitely get an alibi when your pistol locks up solid.......

Len, I'm thinking of what you wrote, and about Jon Euelette, when his Matchdot II fell apart just as he was about to win a new gun in an important match.  It sounds like one ought to bring a spare gun to matches, all set up, sighted, and ready to go, "just in case".  

I'm thinking about what CR10X just posted; when something goes very wrong, and there seems to be no obvious way to fix it, maybe the best idea is to do nothing, bring it home, ask about it online, or go to a gunsmith.  At the very moment when the gun locked up, maybe it could have been fixed the way you did it, but more easily.  But the more things anyone did to try to fix it, it might be locked up just that much tighter.  I guess moving the slide slightly back and forth as you did might allow it to work its way free, but with a lot of force, it might have just bound itself up that much tighter.  

I'll shut up now; I've got nothing useful to add.  I'd be anxious to hear from anyone who knows an easier way to get the gun apart when this happens.


Someone should write a book titled "Something went wrong, what do I do now?" with a collection of these scenarios.  :-)

I used to race enduro karts and vintage motorcycles. I helped sponsor a motorcycle road race team. If you didn't bring back-up, you weren't racing. We fixed the real problems/issues when we got home, not in the middle of the battle.

When shooting I always had another gun ready. A good mechanic, gunsmith whatever the field is, get one and put your faith in him or her. Pull the device and bring the backup on line.

A glass of Burboun at the end of the day and some good conversation also helps ease the pain.

Mike, the end of the spring wedges in the guide rod hole. It is very visible looked at from the front. It would be possible (probably not practical) to have a punch designed that you could use to tap that spring free. It could be a crescent shaped punch, thin enough to extract and strong enough to do the job. One small caveat. When it happens it is not always possible to clear the pistol. Just kicking out ideas. I don't ever plan on putting it in wrong again.

Len

FYI. I had a back up with me that day. A 41 to back up a 41.

This is good this is a separate thread to make everyone aware of the spring issue.  As well as you take care of your pistols beating it open with a rubber mallet is not on my list of enjoyable tasks.

Are you talking Canadian club or the gun?

LenV wrote:.........One small caveat. When it happens it is not always possible to clear the pistol. Just kicking out ideas. I don't ever plan on putting it in wrong again.........

That is what has scared (terrified?) me at times in the past where for some reason I couldn't clear a pistol, nor could I leave the gun at the range someplace safe.  Someone (long, long ago) was always there to help me.  But if this happened, and I couldn't get a live round out of the gun, what then?  Not knowing anything better, I'd probably remove the magazine.  If I had the tools with me, maybe remove the pin that holds the bolt (and firing pin) in place.  If the trigger guard would come down, maybe the barrel might lift off the gun....  All this would need to be done with the gun pointing downrange, at the range, not in my workshop.  One way or another, I'd need to get it to my gunsmith, safely.       .....scary, at least for me.

Can someone please post the instructions (image of the actual instructions) that come with the Wolf recoil spring?

I'm just curious as I can't ever remember seeing instructions with springs. Even OEM springs from Sig for the classic P series have one end painted and no instructions included to say how it should be installed.

It isn't uncommon though for parts to come with a disclaimer stating that they should be installed by a gunsmith.

Thanks!

I seem to remember a similar thing with conversions.  Before they started tapering the guide rod behind the hex end, the untapered rod shoulder would jam against the inside of the hole in the slide.  That did happen to me and I solved it myself then I saw the conversion people had figured it out too.  but then the springs with a raw cut end now had more room to jam into the slide hole.  So indeed do place a closed finished end forward.

Thanks for this thread. I know a lot of 41 owners, me included, will be checking their recoil springs now.