Time usage in Rapid Fire

by mikemyers Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:20 am

First topic message reminder :

"Rapid Fire" means taking five shots in 10 seconds.
While waiting for the buzzer, it's relatively easy to get ready for that first shot.
For simplification, suppose you take the shot instantly, and you now have 10 seconds to take the remaining four shots.

Part of that time has to be re-acquiring the red dot in your sight, if you're using optics.
Part of that time has to be aiming the gun.
Part of the time is used to smoothly actuate the trigger, without disturbing the gun.
Then there is the small amount of time that gets used up as the gun fires, moves up to your left (for right hand shooters), and stops.

I imagine someone like CR can do this blindfolded, in his sleep, while thinking about something unrelated to shooting.
For me, it takes an annoyingly length of wasted time just getting the dot back into the middle of the red dot sight.

Assuming you guys think this is a reasonable explanation, my question is how to minimize the time it takes to re-acquire the red dot.
......and if you can already do that, how did you learn to do it?

(.....or plan B is for me to give up on red dots, and use steel sights, where I will see the front sight and the target, and need to put one in front of the other.)

(....and the best thing I can think of is to hold the gun in front of me for a very long time, waving it all over, all around me, and learn how to keep the red dot in the sight. After doing this for days, weeks, months, whatever, maybe I'll be able to do it without thinking about it.)

by james r chapman Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:27 am

Just don’t point toward China!

by DA/SA Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:59 pm

mikemyers wrote:why do you use your revolver for any of this? How does that help when you go back to your pistol? I didn't understand your reasoning.

I do the same when working on TF and RF timing while dry firing.

I use a revolver (or a Sig or Beretta) in double action and slowly and steadily squeeze off the shots in dry fire to develop a smooth, steady cadence that allows all five shots in the allowed time period with a consistent finger motion. As soon as the hammer falls you reset and immediately begin a smooth steady pull for the next break for RF.

YMMV

I'll add that I was talking to an older gentleman that was a former Master and had to chuckle when he said that he even uses his microwave oven in ten second intervals when heating something and visualizes the shots to stay in tune to his RF cadence...

That's a fairly dedicated shooter!

by mikemyers Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:44 pm

SteveT wrote:......There will be fatigue through the match and the older we get, the harder it is to build strength, but finding the correct grip and training to ingrain the correct wrist angle is possible at any age. It's not strength, just training.......

That's a good reason for using the Baer with open sights for a while. I can always see the target, AND the front sight. If I can learn how to gradually bring the front sight to where it belongs after taking the shot, I can probably do the same thing later with the optics. I tried today, but I got interrupted too many times. I shot 10 rounds with the Baer at a target; 5 were close to the X and the other 5 were further out, probably because I'm not yet used to the feel of the Baer again.

Maybe I can try different ways to grip the gun, until the gun returns to where I want it to be. Yeah, fatigue and age are both ganging up on me, but I think I'll get there eventually. If nothing else, it's good practice.

There's also a chance that if I use Brian's "tuning" technique with my left foot, I can get the gun to end up where I want it.

by mikemyers Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:47 pm

dronning wrote:Position yourself so you are neutral in the BEGINNING of the shot and if your grip is correct you should come back to the target.
Start with the fundamentals then work from there. You will notice Zins gets his body (shoulders/hips) centered over his feet then adjusts his back foot to fine tune his position. If you twist your body to get aligned your recoil recovery will be difficult because you will "unwind" during the shot. Also note that if your grip is tight one shot then loose the next recoil recovery will not be the same......

I think I found a good starting point, as Brian showed. My body is straight, as Brian wants it to be. I am gripping the gun more firmly than I used to, but nothing like a "death grip".

by mikemyers Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:55 pm

Oleg G wrote:........To achieve good sight alignment - dot in the center of the tube, or the front sight aligned with the rear sight - you have to examine your grip and the position of your wrist.
With your eyes closed, raise the arm with gun. When you have raised the gun, open your eyes and move your wrist slightly and slowly up, down, left and right. Note the position of the wrist when the dot appears in the center of the tube or the front sight appears in the rear sight.
At this point, your wrist is likely not positioned straight as an extension of your forearm, but is at an angle. Take the gun by the barrel/slide with your free hand and reposition the gun's grip in your hand to maintain the dot/sight alignment and to return your wrist to the correct place. Without changing the grip (position of your hand and tension of how hard you're gripping), lower you arm, close your eyes, and raise it again.
Keep repeating this exercise until you can raise your arm with your eyes closed and achieve good sight alignment. This will take a long time, since you have to condition your brain to control your muscles in a certain way without the aid of the eyes.......

Hmm, this might be better than what I was going to do with the Baer and open sights. Thanks. That's a wonderful idea!

Set things up.
Dry fire,
check where the dot is.
Cange ONLY my grip on the gun so the dot is now centered.
Repeat.

This sounds very reasonable. Very logical too!

by mikemyers Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:57 pm

Wobbley wrote:Talk with your PT and see if wearing one of these will help.

https://www.wish.com/c/5cb99819ebd94660275d2bfa?hide_login_modal=true&from_ad=goog_shopping&_display_country_code=US&_force_currency_code=USD&pid=googleadwords_int&c=%7BcampaignId%7D&ad_cid=5cb99819ebd94660275d2bfa&ad_cc=US&ad_curr=USD&ad_price=28.07&campaign_id=6948791183&utm_campaign=6948791183&utm_source=pdp_install&gclid=CjwKCAjwxLH3BRApEiwAqX9arZ0WfWC6WKgktCK11NmkV0wE_MM7Bb1z09FUBkujWcWc6M5ethBqeBoC_5AQAvD_BwE

I’d walk around the neighborhood and then stop and take a stance as if you were shooting except stick my thumb up and “aim” at an object. Work up in weight and duration until you can “aim” at a target for 30 seconds. You can even do this in India.

Wobbley, I will definitely talk to my PT. I already bought wrist weights, so maybe he will want me to start using them. I've got a pair that weighs 1 pound each, 1.5 pounds each, and 2 pounds each.
The two pound weight, along with the lead filled magazine, might be more weight than I'm ready to deal with.

About the last idea - I would probably get locked up! :-)

by Jack H Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:12 pm

An exercise of modified pushups.
Ltc Miller was an advocate of pushups for strength training. I often did them the regular way. But the day of the match (like 45-50 years ago) I would warm up with "pushups" standing next to my car fender with my feet stepped back a variable ways. Keeping the body planked like a real pushup, push off and lower repeatedly. Stretches help too.

I should consult more with my kid who is near done in school to be a DC along with current BS, PTA, MBA.

by mikemyers Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:44 pm

chopper wrote:......Practice your grip and trigger pull this helped me a lot.......hold exercising and dry fire, .......For timing I started with a cadence on RF. .......practice with my trigger finger. .........lots of dry training and learning that trigger....... the basics and fundamentals are everything ..........Masters are called Masters is because they have mastered the trigger.....

Having thought about this for a while, I think I can apply your thoughts to what I want to do.

Turn on TV for background noise.
I'm using the Baer with steel sights. No wasted time. I'm using a lead filled magazine so the gun is at the correct weight.
Dry fire, raising gun, increasing pressure steadily on trigger, after the gun fires,
cock the hammer and
take another two shots, at the same cadence.
(Sometimes I put the sight under an appropriate size "target", and others I just shoot at the blank wall.)
Take 30 second break, then do this all over again, for about half an hour.

This has me naturally moving the gun to the target, without thinking about it.
It also has me learning the rate at which I'm applying pressure to the trigger
This is in tune with the "cadence", but I don't really "know" exactly when the gun will fire.
Most of the time, but not yet 100%, the gun remains motionless when the gun "fires".
With repetition, this is improving.
So is my ability to hold the heavy gun. I'm getting more used to the weight.

I will continue to do this for an hour or so, eventually moving from my couch to standing up in a shooting position.

When I get to the range, maybe this coming Monday, I will dry fire the same way as described above for a while, then load 5 rounds, and continue with live fire.
Will repeat for several days, until I'm sure I have the cadence right.
When I can do it almost automatically, with the help of my subconscious, I will look for ways to improve.

(If I can, I'll make a video recording, so you guys can tell me any obvious mistakes.)

by mikemyers Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:15 am

Oleg G wrote:.........When you will have mastered this, managing recoil and having the gun return to the same place with correct sight alignment will be easy, even without Herculean strength.......

Doing the things you noted will help.
It still leaves me with having to take four shots in ten seconds, even if I'm already applying pressure to the trigger and the first shot goes off at the start.

In addition to everything else, and in addition to my normal dry-fire, how would you feel about this exercise, dry-fire simulating the second shot in my series of 5 shots:

Dry-firing, starting with me holding my gun tightly, aimed high and to my left, while staring at my target
waiting for a “BEEP” from my phone,
at which time I would start adding pressure back to the trigger, while moving (not aiming) the gun back towards my target
The gun will "CLICK" when I apply enough pressure.
My phone will make another “beep” two seconds after the first, and I need to have "dry-fired" (reasonably accurately) before that second BEEP.
.........Repeat from the beginning.....

When dry-firing, this would only allow me to take one shot, but at a pace similar to what I will need to follow when shooting.
It is only exercising one aspect of Rapid Fire, but that aspect is the thing that I'm struggling with the most.

Which also leads to another question - when you guys do Rapid Fire, does your eye stay on the target the entire time, then shift to dot or front sight?

by Oleg G Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:11 pm

Mike,

In short - yes. This is a good drill to train yourself for trigger operation in timed/rapid fire.
Keep your eyes on the target and bring the dot/sights back to proper alignment and sight picture.
I have been using this drill for quite some time. The only detriment of this drill is that you have to deliberately drive the gun back on target. In real shooting, you want to train yourself to allow the pistol to return to the center of the target on its own, while you are pressing the trigger. But this drill is still better than nothing.

I am giving you a link to an mp3 file that you can load on your phone. This file contains a 10-shots loop of partial range commands and two buzzer sounds, two seconds apart. You can use for 1-shot drills, either first shot, or the second shot.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yxVrLF7I1-2LBFEwt9WmvWpBlI80MRKZ/view?usp=sharing

Additionally, you may find this useful (a shameless plug for my own post):

https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t13889-review-new-sustained-fire-training-aid-coolfire-trainer?highlight=coolfire

I have been using Coolfire trainer to work on trigger operation during timed and rapid fire with very good success. It does not simulate recoil of either a .22 or a .45 pistol but it does help a lot, if you consciously use this device as a tool to reset the trigger and execute a series of 5 trigger presses within a preset time limit.

Keep up the good work!
Oleg.

by Olde Pilot Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:51 pm

I was taught centuries ago to drive the gun back to center. Was shooting all full power hardball then. So, no time to lollygag in recovery to recoil which was lots greater than today's baby loads! Still believe it's a good practice.

by mikemyers Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:09 pm

Gee......

First thought, glad you feel what I posted might be useful.

Second thought - I've completely changed my plans of what to do - your audio recording is excellent. So I point the gun up high and to my left, the buzzer simulates a shot I presumably would have just taken, and I have about a second to get the gun back to pointing at the target and fire up to when the second buzzer sounds.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yxVrLF7I1-2LBFEwt9WmvWpBlI80MRKZ/view?usp=sharing

You just converted my imagination into "reality". (But it took me a long time how to put the file on my iPhone so I can quickly get to it to play it anytime I want. )

I'm not so sure about the Coolfire Trainer. For over $300, I'm not sure how useful it would be for me, and I don't want to create even new problems that I currently don't have. I never saw that thread until just now - it was posted while I was still in India.

I guess I'll be practicing "Timed Fire" if I use your audio recording, and manually cock the hammer between shots - but getting the shot off will be done in the allowed time for Rapid Fire.

Thank You!!

by mikemyers Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:12 pm

Olde Pilot wrote:I was taught centuries ago to drive the gun back to center. Was shooting all full power hardball then. So, no time to lollygag in recovery to recoil which was lots greater than today's baby loads! Still believe it's a good practice.

Thanks - I guess for now, at least when at home practicing, that's what I'll be doing.

I have two guns that will handle the 230 grain full loads. I guess every so often, I should bring them to the range. "baby loads"..... cute description! I'll remember that. :-)

by mikemyers Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:34 pm

Just wrote up a revised routine:

I will set up my phone to play the following recording as I dry-fire
At an appropriate time, I grip my gun tightly, gun pointing high and to my left, waiting for the buzzer
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yxVrLF7I1-2LBFEwt9WmvWpBlI80MRKZ/view?usp=sharing
After the buzzer I start adding pressure to the trigger, while quickly aiming the gun at my target
I have one second in which to dry-fire my gun at the target before the second buzzer

Repeat the above ten times.

by Ed Hall Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:07 pm

I've put this up other times, but I can copy/paste again in case someone is interested:

Ed Hall wrote:I do sustained dry fire training with a string tied around the rear sight (or, somewhere on the slide). I have the other end tied to a magazine and held in my off hand against my chest with some slack. When the hammer falls, I hesitate a moment for follow through and then tug on the string to cycle the slide.

This will allow you to start on target and do all five shots for your sustained strings. With a turning target image (computer/phone, etc.) beyond your sights, dry fire sustained training can be achieved.

by **mspingeld** Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:22 pm

Ed, Can you post a picture of how you tied the string to the sight/slide?

by Ed Hall Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:42 pm

mspingeld wrote:Ed, Can you post a picture of how you tied the string to the sight/slide?

Time usage in Rapid Fire - Page 2 92fsst11

Time usage in Rapid Fire - Page 2 1911st11

I have the string on the off hand side so it doesn't interfere with the hammer.

I don't have it set up ATM, but with my 208s, I can't have the rear open sight in place because I use a cotter pin through one of the cross spring pins and tie the string to the head of the cotter pin.

by rreid Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:42 pm

Dry practice with a revolver and the bullseye timer android app

by CR10X Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:24 am

I've watched this thread for a while.

Where is Grayson Palmer when we need him? Grayson is one of the best short line shooters I know. For a full time Dad, worker and part time shooter he was my go to person to talk me off the ledge when it came to dealing with the short line. I've probably got 20 pages or so of our discussions and postings from the early 2000's. He is far better at explaining what he does, how he sees and feels it than anyone I talked to when we were shooting together a lot.

But I will take a stab at this.

Second thought - I've completely changed my plans of what to do - your audio recording is excellent. So I point the gun up high and to my left, the buzzer simulates a shot I presumably would have just taken, and I have about a second to get the gun back to pointing at the target and fire up to when the second buzzer sounds.

The more you race against time, the more times that time will beat you. There is enough time in 10 seconds to shoot or 6 or 7 10's when you do things correctly and don't rush. (I know because I trained on this a long time ago to see how far I could go.) But there is not enough time for 5 shots if you're thinking and searching and waiting for perfect.

Sustained fire is not all about cadence, or recovery time, or getting the shot off exactly when the target turns. Even Zins has strings that have some differences in time between starts and shots. Then again, I've also seen he has time to scope during rapid fire too. I've (heard) and seen a lot more cleans shot with some minute differences in time between shots than I have seen with "perfect" cadences with cleans. That means the shooter saw something or felt something that changed the timing - but not the process and dealt with it.

The important thing when you are training is that you do not shoot faster than you can see and feel what is going on. You do not have to wait for the dot to exactly center every time, but you do have to see it driving towards the center of your area, as the trigger process is completing for that shot. Then keeping your eye at the same position, drive the gun back towards your original position and aiming area and see the dot (or aligned open sights) coming back towards that area.

At first you will flounder by looking for the sights, not driving the gun back to the same position. You will flounder by rushing the trigger disturbing both the sight alignment or gun position and the trigger process. Etc, etc..

Good advise above to dryfire with a revolver, double action. It will build up your hand strength and you ability to focus on the front sight (see the thing you need to see), without that bang induced flinching. Do not snap it, it's a controlled roll / press to instill the complete trigger operation you want when shooting. We're not looking for 5 shots in 10 seconds, we are looking to build up strength, learn to complete the trigger while keeping the sights aligned and training to see that front sight / dot. Getting faster at it will come with development.

When you get to the actual line and shooting the string. There are only five things you need to think of, all the rest is just seeing what is going on (according to Grayson).

Oh, you want to know the five things?

OK, When the targets turn and [while you start to be aware of the full target and your aiming area] edit ~~you see the target fully then~~ - (1) Trigger, (2) Trigger, (3) Trigger, (4) Trigger, (5) Trigger.

Everything else is just reacting to what you see. It's may or may not be the same amount of time between shots every time, but most times close, but some times the recovery is just a little off (well maybe most times when you start). But, you have to see and shoot the first 10 in order to shoot five of them in a string. Eventually, they get closer and more consistent and you can call where each one went after the string is finished. (I don't usually use a scope at all at 25, I generally already know where they are without looking. And you should too if you were seeing what was going on.)

It's a long road, do not stumble and break your leg rushing off at the start.

From my experience, on the short line, if you have trouble finding the front sight or dot, work on the grip. If you have trouble getting consistent trigger operation, work on the grip. If you have trouble recovering to the target, work on the grip. Anyway, you get the idea. (This is more for .45, but it will also do wonders for the x count with the .22.)

CR

by James Hensler Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:34 pm

One match I was shooting Rapid Fire and before the targets turned My dumbass squeezed to much and Bam my pistol went off. I yelled fuck real loud and half the line didn’t get all their shots off in time because they was laughing! We almost got an Alibi

by mikemyers Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:10 pm

CR10X wrote:.......The more you race against time, the more times that time will beat you. There is enough time in 10 seconds to shoot or 6 or 7 10's when you do things correctly and don't rush. (I know because I trained on this a long time ago to see how far I could go.) But there is not enough time for 5 shots if you're thinking and searching and waiting for perfect.......

>>>I understand that I was wrong.<<<

........The important thing when you are training is that you do not shoot faster than you can see and feel what is going on. You do not have to wait for the dot to exactly center every time, but you do have to see it driving towards the center of your area, as the trigger process is completing for that shot. Then keeping your eye at the same position, drive the gun back towards your original position and aiming area and see the dot (or aligned open sights) coming back towards that area...........

>>>I may not get all the 5 rounds off, but I will follow that advice instead of what I was thinking before.<<<

At first you will flounder by looking for the sights, not driving the gun back to the same position. You will flounder by rushing the trigger disturbing both the sight alignment or gun position and the trigger process. Etc, etc.. >>>So True!!<<<

.......we are looking to build up strength, learn to complete the trigger while keeping the sights aligned and training to see that front sight / dot.
.......Getting faster at it will come with development.
.......When the targets turn and you see the target fully then - (1) Trigger, (2) Trigger, (3) Trigger, (4) Trigger, (5) Trigger.....

>>>I signed up for Physical Therapy, and among other things, I need to build up the strength in my hand, arm, and shoulder.<<<

From my experience, on the short line, if you have trouble finding the front sight or dot, work on the grip. If you have trouble getting consistent trigger operation, work on the grip. If you have trouble recovering to the target, work on the grip.....

>>>My hands are not very strong (often, I can't unscrew the cap on a bottle), and even though my hands are positioned where Brian and others say they should be, if I grip tighter, as I have been told to do, the gun starts shaking. With time, I hope that will improve. I have one of those hand grip tools that you squeeze against a spring, but it's too strong for me. I bought a new one today that is adjustable. Maybe by New Year's I will have reasonable strength in my hand. Based on what CR wrote, I'm not going to use the Bullseye Rapid Fire recording - my take on what is written here is to concentrate on "quality", not "time".<<<

by mikemyers Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:13 pm

mikemyers wrote:.......I imagine someone like CR can do this blindfolded, in his sleep, while thinking about something unrelated to shooting.
For me, it takes an annoyingly length of wasted time just getting the dot back into the middle of the red dot sight......

What I just posted up above, is the main thing I wrote when I posted this thread - the one thing that frustrated me the most, because it made everything else durn near impossible.

So, here's a quote from CR10X:
" From my experience, on the short line, if you have trouble finding the front sight or dot, work on the grip.
If you have trouble getting consistent trigger operation, work on the grip.
If you have trouble recovering to the target, work on the grip. "

So, if I ignore everything else posted in this thread, the single most important thing for me to consider is my GRIP.
Maybe that's what is leading to all my frustration.
Some people in this thread are suggesting "band-aids".
I think CR10X seems to be telling me to fix the real problem, so I won't need band aids.

For ages, this is the Brian Zins video that I learned Grip from, watched over and over, posted January, 2018:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXWoJ2arPuI
Brian says to put your trigger finger where it needs to go, then work around it to get the grip, leaving the trigger finger in the same place.

This is a newer five minute Brian Zins video posted December, 2019:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-drGiQVM8GI
Brian says very similar things, but he explains them differently.

Thinking about what CR10X wrote (if you have trouble finding the front sight or dot, since that is my problem, chances are my grip is wrong. I'm just thinking out loud as I'm typing this. If CR10X and Brian are right, I should be able to pick up my gun, aim it at the target, and the dot should already be right in the middle of the sight.

Hmm, if I force the dot to go to the middle, then look away, then come back to look at the sight, the dot is always gone. I may be "slow", or "dense", or whatever, but I'm pretty sure this is my real problem, not all the other stuff I was considering.

Maybe it make sense to grip my gun as I've been doing, get the dot in the middle of the sight, then look away for a while, then come back to the sight and adjust the gun, (not my hand or arm), to get the dot where it belongs, and keep doing this until I find a spot where the dot stays centered in the sight. Then lower my gun and raise it, several times, and find a grip where the dot just naturally stays in the middle of the sight? I think that's what Brian and CR10X are trying to teach me.

by CR10X Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:26 pm

Work on your grip is generally more about keeping it the same through all your shots than changing it. If you can see the front and rear sights aligned or the dot in the center of the tube every time, then the grip is ok.

But most people have trouble keeping a consistent grip (same pressure through out the complete hand, fingers, etc.) and that's a big issue in sustained fire. Check your grip pressure over 4 different strings by starting a string and then stop after your 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th shots. Is the grip position and pressure exactly the same as when you started? I'll bet you might find anything from gripping lighter, with the fingertips, different thumb pressure, 2nd and 3rd finger pressure different, gun twisted, etc.

Where you are at on the target, will that's more a position issue.

CR

by mikemyers Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:08 pm

Someone once suggested I close my eyes, grip my gun, raise it in front of me, then open my eyes. The red dot is never in view. Obviously, I can adjust my hands to bring it into view, but then I suspect my hands are not in the right place.

When I try this, then adjust my feet, and try it again, I eventually get to where the target is within the view of the sight, (which is how I'm supposed to adjust my rear foot to get the angle and elevation correct). That part I can do. maybe not that well yet, but reasonably well - better than before.

The guidance I have used in selecting my grip is Brian's videos.

Starting Monday, I'll try what. you suggested. I might not be good enough yet, but at least the gun no longer seems to move within my hand. Maybe that's helped by the roughness of the grips, the front strap, the back strap, and my improving grip strength. Long ago, I used to have to correct my grip frequently because my hand(s) had moved. Now I grip harder, and the only thing I'm aware of that is changing is that the beavertail seems to be pressing against my hand harder with every shot - but I've deliberately forced my hand up and into the beavertail, which might be the explanation for that.

I thought about taking a photo of my hand while gripping the gun. Maybe I'll do it anyway. When I watch Brian's videos, I think I'm doing what he is explaining. If it would be helpful, I'll take the photo.

The other thing I'm doing now (which was so, so hard for me to get used to) is to apply constantly increasing pressure to the trigger after a shot, so the pressure is building up for me to take the next shot without "jerking" the trigger. That's another topic, but if I keep doing it while dry-firing, I expect my body to do it naturally at the range.

(There's a short video of Brian waving the gun all over, while illustrating someone trying to find the dot/sight. That's what I've been doing.)

by bruce martindale Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:40 pm

Grip is important for a good trigger pull and keeping the gun under control. A good pull with a weak or improper grip is probably as bad or worse than a good grip and poor pull. Two things going on at once, hard to deconvolve them. Good grio gets you good recovery .

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