Time usage in Rapid Fire

First topic message reminder :

"Rapid Fire" means taking five shots in 10 seconds.
While waiting for the buzzer, it's relatively easy to get ready for that first shot.  
For simplification, suppose you take the shot instantly, and you now have 10 seconds to take the remaining four shots.

1. Part of that time has to be re-acquiring the red dot in your sight, if you're using optics.
   
2. Part of that time has to be aiming the gun.
   
3. Part of the time is used to smoothly actuate the trigger, without disturbing the gun.
   
4. Then there is the small amount of time that gets used up as the gun fires, moves up to your left (for right hand shooters), and stops.
   

I imagine someone like CR can do this blindfolded, in his sleep, while thinking about something unrelated to shooting.
For me, it takes an annoyingly length of wasted time just getting the dot back into the middle of the red dot sight.


Assuming you guys think this is a reasonable explanation, my question is how to minimize the time it takes to re-acquire the red dot.
......and if you can already do that, how did you learn to do it?

(.....or plan B is for me to give up on red dots, and use steel sights, where I will see the front sight and the target, and need to put one in front of the other.)

(....and the best thing I can think of is to hold the gun in front of me for a very long time, waving it all over, all around me, and learn how to keep the red dot in the sight.  After doing this for days, weeks, months, whatever, maybe I'll be able to do it without thinking about it.)

Bruce, makes sense, but what specific thing(s) should I be doing about it?

I'm sure I have a weak grip.  I'm not very strong.  PT will help, but that's going to take time. 
I'm 76, and I can't run the clock backwards.  
When I first started Bullseye, I couldn't hold the gun up with one hand.  Now I can, mostly.
When I first got a red dot sight, the dot danced around like it was going crazy.  Now it hovers over the black.

Are you suggesting I should give up on Bullseye, as I'm not strong enough and too old?

if the gun doesn't move in your hand, then the grip is probably strong enough.  But is it consistent enough?

As for developing grip and hand strength.  Buy about 20 or 30 pounds of 20 penny nails and get a hammer and some scrap 2X4's.  Hammer as many nails as you feel you can for a few minutes every day.  When you finish up the nails, then see what your grip feels like. (I'd suggest you not try to do it all at once or you will never recover!)  There's an article in the Pistol Shooters Treasury where the shooter mentions building a barn.  Look it up and see who it was. 

Good morning!  

Gun used to move in my hand, always.  Now nothing changes.  I figure with the rough front strap and back strap, and the sharkskin grips, if it did move, it would shred my hand. That, and lots more dry fire and range time.  

Carpentry - I'd probably be kicked out of my condo in short order, but I will mention this at PT Tuesday.  My hand exerciser gets here today - hopefully the setting range is good for me.

Pistol Shooter's Treasury - I've read most of the book many times, but I don't remember that.  Can you narrow it down to the appropriate section I should look into?

A bit of positive news - I tried what I described earlier, raising my arm with the gun as if to shoot, saw the dot in the middle of the sight, then closed my eye for several seconds, opened eye, noticed dot was gone, and adjusted gun in my hand so the dot was there again.  Lowered gun without relaxing hand, raised gun again, and repeated.  After doing this for five minutes or so, I found a place where the dot was starting to be in the sight as I was re-opening my eyes.  It's slightly different grip than before, but it seems to be much more stable.  The biggest problem is when I close my eyes, the gun tends to move down a little.  I adjusted my feet to "raise the POI", and finally settled with something that worked much better for me.  Oh, and as I raised my hand with the gun, the   dot was more likely to be close to the center of the sight.  I get to try it out at the range on Monday.


I did try to take a photo of my hand gripping the gun in front of a mirror so you see the grip from both sides.  It's impossible to do perfectly, while also holding my phone in my other hand to capture the image, and looking at the phone to make sure things are lined up, and manipulating it.  This photo is close, but when I'm firing (dry or live), my trigger finger goes straight to my left, instead of bending around the trigger  ......maybe my phone was a little too far forward to get the angle I wanted.  It's close though.  Thumb is resting in place, not pressing against grip.  Hand is as high up on the gun as I can get it.

Gee, skinny little arms.  The  only thing that is incorrect in this photo, is the tip of my thumb appears to be a little in front of the "black" part of the frame.  When I was trying to find the best position, I looked, and the tip of my thumb was directly even with the end of the "black".  I figured this is how I can verify that my hand is wrapped the proper amount around the frame - when I did my testing, then checked, that's how I was holding it.  I figure it's a good way to verify I'm always holding the gun with my hand wrapped properly around the gun (which controls whether the gun is moved more or less to either side).  When I do that correctly, the red dot no longer tends to move to either side on its own - it seems more stable.  Hope what I just wrote makes sense.

It doesn't really matter as much what it looks like as how does it feel and how does it work?  Nobody is going to be able to answer that but you. 

As for size and strength, if Ruby Fox and Joan Gladwell could shoot hardball, you should probably be able to shoot wadcutters.

Just gotta learn how to do it with what you've got or what you can get (exercise & experience).

CR

How does it feel?   Perfect
How does it work?  Better than before
Dry fire, live fire, PT, and home exercise - should all help.

Thanks for all the advice.

mikemyers wrote:Bruce, makes sense, but what specific thing(s) should I be doing about it?

I'm sure I have a weak grip. ...

Are you suggesting I should give up on Bullseye, as I'm not strong enough and too old?

Nunca Nunca Nunca, and furthermore, Never!  Don't give up. 

None of us are getting younger, and while raw strength helps, it isn't everything. Team Les Baer is all Ladies, and they outshoot me, and most of the rest of us for that matter.

It's, in my opinion, a game of balance and fine motor control, plus control of emotions, something women are better at.

We are diverging a bit from your original question and maybe it needs a separate thread. I have wondered at the details of the grip for good shooters here but it's hard to get. I suspect because it's so automatic and subconscious that they can't even begin to describe it to others. Let's start a separate thread on grip and see what comes up. I find it fascinating and have spent a lot of time and effort on it. Have been shooing mostly 50 yard since that's where it matters most.

Sounds good to me.

Can you please start the thread?  You'll word it more appropriately than what I  would post.

My new hand strength training tool:

Ed Hall wrote:

mspingeld wrote:Ed, Can you post a picture of how you tied the string to the sight/slide?

I have the string on the off hand side so it doesn't interfere with the hammer.

I don't have it set up ATM, but with my 208s, I can't have the rear open sight in place because I use a cotter pin through one of the cross spring pins and tie the string to the head of the cotter pin.

  Ed, I tried tying a string around the red dot mount, what a blast. That pretty much simulates the whole shabang. I just had to remember to give the string slack after pulling the slide back. Thanks for the new training method, it is intense and it's fun and addicting to do.
Stan

  Ed, I tried tying a string around the red dot mount, what a blast. That pretty much simulates the whole shabang. I just had to remember to give the string slack after pulling the slide back. Thanks for the new training method, it is intense and it's fun and addicting to do.
Stan

Stan,
I hate to tell you this, but your RO gonna need ammo to rack the slide
Jon

Jon Eulette wrote:

  Ed, I tried tying a string around the red dot mount, what a blast. That pretty much simulates the whole shabang. I just had to remember to give the string slack after pulling the slide back. Thanks for the new training method, it is intense and it's fun and addicting to do.
Stan

Stan,
I hate to tell you this, but your RO gonna need ammo to rack the slide
Jon

Do you not want your guns cycled this way?  If that's the case, would snap caps be OK?  Or, some dummy rounds***?

***For you guys that use dummy rounds at home, make sure they're dummy rounds!  Use different colored cases, if possible.  You can also drill holes through the sides so you can easily identify them as dummies and check often!

Ed Hall wrote:For you guys that use dummy rounds at home, make sure they're dummy rounds!  Use different colored cases, if possible.  You can also drill holes through the sides so you can easily identify them as dummies and check often!

What I bought:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0048KFEMM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Today was an interesting day.  I spent two hours at the range, practicing with live rounds what I've been reading here. The ideas I learned in this thread made a huge difference to my shooting.

I got similar results from "slow fire" and "timed fire" because I was shooting both of them almost the same way, concentrating on timed fire shooting.  I was pretty happy at that point, although I spent forever looking at the back of the target to find three "missing" rounds.  I was very pleased that once I started locking my right elbow, gripping the gun normally, and then gripping harder, the red dot did come back to the starting point every time, but going a little too far.  At least this was working though, reducing wasted time.  For Rapid Fire, a few times I was back to struggling with finding the dot, and four shots were based on wishing, not seeing.  

Next Wednesday, I'll either concentrate on Rapid Fire again, or take a break and shoot something else.



The single biggest thing to me, was that I could stare at the target, and the gun did a much better job of coming back to the starting point.  I was trying to lock the gun, and my hand, and my arm, into a single structure, so after the shot the whole thing "sprung back" to where it started.  

By that point, it was late, I was getting hot, and I figured that was enough for one day.

If I look at all this as a learning experience, I'll go back to the range in two days and do the same thing again.  On the other hand, maybe I'll put all this to the side for a while, and bring either my High Standard, or a revolver, or both!

Try doing everything before you lift the gun from the bench. Get your feet planted with weight even, get your head locked in position looking at the target, grip the gun firmly, get your elbow in position so your hand, wrist, arm, and elbow are one structure, breathe, and then raise the gun up to the target using only your shoulder.

Try it without having your finger on the trigger and adjust the gun in your hand until you raise it up and the dot appears between your eye and the target. 

Then without changing your grip, place your finger on the trigger and see where it lands.

You may need a shorter or longer trigger to make it all work out. They make different length triggers for that reason.

Mike,

Great progress with Timed Fire. For Rapid fire, try to shoot as many GOOD shots as you can in 10 secs. If you can shoot only 3 shots but you are able to execute your newly-found shot process correctly, this will be a success! The speed will come with repetition but DON'T train by taking bad shots.

Regards,
Oleg.

DA/SA wrote:

Try doing everything before you lift the gun from the bench. 

Get your feet planted with weight even, 

get your head locked in position looking at the target, 

grip the gun firmly, 

get your elbow in position so your hand, wrist, arm, and elbow are one structure, 

breathe, and then 

raise the gun up to the target using only your shoulder.

Try it without having your finger on the trigger and adjust the gun in your hand until you raise it up and the dot appears between your eye and the target. 

Then without changing your grip, place your finger on the trigger and see where it lands.

You may need a shorter or longer trigger to make it all work out.   They make different length triggers for that reason.

I will print this out, like a check-list, and try it either Wednesday or the next time I take my45.

How does one select a trigger?
Are adjustable triggers available?
I bought this trigger from Caspian, and spent two days installing it.  
https://caspianarms.com/productdisplay/trik-trigger-single-stack


I think if I had it to do over again, I'd get a slightly shorter trigger.

Oleg G wrote:Mike,

Great progress with Timed Fire. For Rapid fire, try to shoot as many GOOD shots as you can in 10 secs. If you can shoot only 3 shots but you are able to execute your newly-found shot process correctly, this will be a success! The speed will come with repetition but DON'T train by taking bad shots.

Regards,
Oleg.

Thanks - for Rapid Fire, that is NOT what I was doing today.
Will try again, taking whatever time it takes to try for good shots, even if I don't get to fire all five rounds.

Triggers come in various lengths. The one you have now looks pretty long.

Any idea of who makes this trigger?

Could be a Nighthawk Custom Tri-Cavity. If it is one of those, it only comes as a long.

Kings?

Hope your neighbors don't report you for "aiming a dangerous weapon."

Olde Pilot wrote:Hope your neighbors don't report you for "aiming a dangerous weapon."

I've always been  concerned about this - so I close the Venetian blinds on the windows through which people could see me.

I was struggling with the concept of how to always get the same grip, when I had an idea.  It works splendidly!!  Once my feet are where they need to be, the gun comes right up to the target.  Check the following photo I took of my Salyer Springfield, and the red mark I made on my hand.  As long as I pick up the gun with that mark directly behind the hammer, everything falls into place nicely, with the target and red dot in the field of view. 

Maybe eventually I'll outgrow the need for something like this.

mikemyers wrote:I was struggling with the concept of how to always get the same grip, when I had an idea.  It works splendidly!!  Once my feet are where they need to be, the gun comes right up to the target.  Check the following photo I took of my Salyer Springfield, and the red mark I made on my hand.  As long as I pick up the gun with that mark directly behind the hammer, everything falls into place nicely, with the target and red dot in the field of view. 

Maybe eventually I'll outgrow the need for something like this.

Way too difficult to get everything lined up, and stay lined up when go to work the camera.

Oh well, it shows what I want it to show.

I hope you're not getting that mark tattooed on your hand. It could change under different circumstances. Your grip might not be exactly the same if you're shooting outdoors on a hot, humid day, versus indoors in the winter with 20% humidity.  It can even change in a few hours over the course of a match. What you've found here is a good start. Now you should get into the habit of addressing the target before each string of fire and making sure that you're seeing the dot like you want to. If something is off, you can quickly adjust before the command to load.

rreid wrote:
........What you've found here is a good start. Now you should get into the habit of addressing the target before each string of fire and making sure that you're seeing the dot like you want to. If something is off, you can quickly adjust before the command to load.

Thank you, I didn't think of it that way, but you're correct.  The mark on my hand will only bring the red dot into the sight.  It's my feet that need to bring the target there.  Now that you've mentioned it, it seems obvious, but I wasn't thinking it out completely until reading your post.  

You're right - it's just a "start".  It should minimize wasted time hunting for a dot, but I'll need to adjust my feet just like what I was doing in dry-firing.

I don't (yet) know under what circumstances I would want to change that alignment.  I guess eventually I'll learn.  For me, this is like the training wheels on my first bicycle.